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  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Why didn't he play his ass off last year then?
    He was dealing with an injury, and had conflict with the Spurs medical staff over the nature of the injury, as has all been reported many times, and he had concerns about re-injury?
    twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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    • thead wrote: View Post
      Just so I understand you. You are perfectly willing to trade whatever it takes, take a risk even if it means 4 or 5 years lost in the wilderness after?

      I don't want to put words in your mouth is all. Where do you draw the line?

      The position I have come to, and please feel free to challenge me on it because I certainly have wavered, is that I am willing to give up a lot, but not willing to go back to a total rebuild if it fails. I want assets around if we gamble.
      My line is OG. He's the youngest piece we have, he has upside and we can control his contract for years if we want.

      My preferred centrepiece is DeMar. I don't think Masai goes out of his way to keep DeMar long term just for a "legacy player". I think he cares about optics, but that can work as much against DeMar with repeated failures with him as our #1 option.

      I don't think you have to give up a ton of pieces because the Spurs have no leverage whatsoever.

      You get Kawhi for a limited package like DeMar + prospect + 2019 1st. You then have a year to convince Kawhi to stay, and 2 years (whether Kawhi stays or not) to figure out what young pieces you want to hang onto.

      Again, if this team stagnates for another year, chances are Masai will have to start cashing in on rotation guys anyway because of age/contract status. A rebuild could be on the way within a couple of years thead, and it can happen regardless of whether we take a risk on Kawhi or not.
      Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:03 PM.

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      • Barolt wrote: View Post
        He was dealing with an injury, and had conflict with the Spurs medical staff over the nature of the injury, as has all been reported many times, and he had concerns about re-injury?
        So how do you know he's not dealing with that injury still and won't have a conflict with the Raptors medical staff?

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        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          My line is OG. He's the youngest piece we have, he has upside and we can control his contract for years if we want.

          My preferred centrepiece is DeMar. I don't think Masai goes out of his way to keep DeMar long term just for a "legacy player". I think he cares about optics, but that can work as much against DeMar with repeated failures with him as our #1 option.

          I don't think you have to give up a ton of pieces because the Spurs have no leverage whatsoever.

          You get Kawhi for a limited package like DeMar + prospect + 2019 1st. You then have a year to convince Kawhi to stay, and 2 years (whether Kawhi stays or not) to figure out what young pieces you want to hang onto.

          Again, if this team stagnates for another year, chances our Masai will have to start cashing in on rotation guys anyway because of age/contract status. A rebuild could be on the way within a couple of years thead, and it can happen regardless of whether we take a risk on Kawhi or not.
          This has been my stance from the beginning. Where people have lost me is the willingness to trade DeMar and OG and even go further than that to include more picks and prospects.

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          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            I'm sorry but if Zach LaVine can get 4/84 coming off an ACL injury in a year where most teams are capped out, I'm really not sure how Kawhi doesn't get a max deal next summer.
            Zach Lavine isn't a head case. If Kawhi throws away 2 years and hasn't proved good health (I think that's a pretty big If at this point), he's more in IT/Boogie territory than Lavine territory. He was a better player than IT/Boogie to begin with so his bottom won't be as low, but his next 4 year contract is really going to be affected by how this season goes imho.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
              So how do you know he's not dealing with that injury still and won't have a conflict with the Raptors medical staff?
              Because part of any trade is physicals and getting a player's medical records.
              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                Zach Lavine isn't a head case. If Kawhi throws away 2 years and hasn't proved good health (I think that's a pretty big If at this point), he's more in IT/Boogie territory than Lavine territory. He was a better player than IT/Boogie to begin with so his bottom won't be as low, but his next 4 year contract is really going to be affected by how this season goes imho.
                Who cares if he isn't a head case, he's also not a good player... yet he still got $21M a year in a market where really only the Kings and Bulls could pay him.

                Yet somehow you guys think Kawhi Leonard, who's made it clear he wants to be in LA, been tracked by both LA teams for years, in an offseason where both will have max cap space, will not get paid his money next summer.

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                • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                  Spurs offer Kawhi for DeMar, OG, 2019 1st right now, you accept that right?
                  I don't without some health knowledge and without some form of extension agreed to in principle. I'm happy to be wrong though
                  For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                  • Barolt wrote: View Post
                    Because part of any trade is physicals and getting a player's medical records.
                    It doesn't matter. The Spurs had Kawhi's medical records as well. If he gets a second opinion and decides he doesn't want to play he won't play. This is a real risk that has to be factored into the valuation of Kawhi in the deal.

                    That's why when you say people are underrating Kawhi you're off-base and out of line. Everyone knows that when healthy this is a guy who's better than every single player in the eastern conference. The problem is we don't know if we're getting him healthy, we don't know if we're getting him motivated, we don't know if we're getting him for more than year (we're likely not) and we don't know that if we give up DeMar, OG and more for him if we even ensure ourselves eastern conference supremacy next season.

                    These are real things that matter. We can ignore them, or address them logically.

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                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      Spurs offer Kawhi for DeMar, OG, 2019 1st right now, you accept that right?
                      I really want to keep OG/Siakam out of that deal and put Poeltl/Delon in instead, Kawhi is a big flight risk.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • Character matters too. Admittedly I am not in the Spurs organization. It is held up universally, across the league as a model of excellence. Teams line up to hire their assistants. What don't we know?
                        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                        • I am not comfortable including both DD + OG in the same package. I would prefer either DD + Siakam or OG + JV, plus whatever picks are necessasry.

                          But if it makes me uncomfortable, that's probably what it will take to get a deal done.

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                          • thead wrote: View Post
                            Character matters too. Admittedly I am not in the Spurs organization. It is held up universally, across the league as a model of excellence. Teams line up to hire their assistants. What don't we know?
                            I think it's worth keeping in mind though, with regards to character, Kawhi was the perfect team guy for 6 years prior to the injury.

                            Which is more likely, he suddenly changed his entire personality, or the conflict with the team over the injury was more serious than we knew?
                            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                            • S.R. wrote: View Post
                              I really want to keep OG/Siakam out of that deal and put Poeltl/Delon in instead, Kawhi is a big flight risk.
                              I'll ask again. Do you do that deal or not?

                              I was basically the first one here to propose trading DeRozan+Poeltl+Delon+1st for Kawhi. That's not what we're having a debate about right now. We're having a debate about whether it's smart to put our 2 best trade assets (DeRozan and OG) in a trade for a one year rental of Kawhi Leonard.

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                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                                It doesn't matter. The Spurs had Kawhi's medical records as well. If he gets a second opinion and decides he doesn't want to play he won't play. This is a real risk that has to be factored into the valuation of Kawhi in the deal.

                                That's why when you say people are underrating Kawhi you're off-base and out of line. Everyone knows that when healthy this is a guy who's better than every single player in the eastern conference. The problem is we don't know if we're getting him healthy, we don't know if we're getting him motivated, we don't know if we're getting him for more than year (we're likely not) and we don't know that if we give up DeMar, OG and more for him if we even ensure ourselves eastern conference supremacy next season.

                                These are real things that matter. We can ignore them, or address them logically.
                                I can endorse this position.
                                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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