Everything 2018 Off Season

[Barolt]

Barolt what would be your intentions after making that trade?

Would you follow that up by moving Lowry and then Ibaka/JV if possible as well?

Or would the idea be to try to win?

Because whether you value DeMar highly or not that deal certainly doesn't make us better next season. So I would hope that your intention is the former (in which case it's an ok but not ideal trade).

I would absolutely move Ibaka if a reasonable trade can be found regardless. I'd think about moving JV for the right deal, but wouldn't feel like it's necessary.

I probably wouldn't trade Lowry unless he wants out, because there is absolutely no way you get equivalent value back for him, he's too valuable to the Raptors still.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

That's not the return though. It's not DeMar for the #4 pick straight up - it's DeMar for the #4 pick plus 50M dollars of dead money. In the same way that the number 4 pick has a lot of positive value, that Chandler Parsons contract has a lot of negative value to ownership.

Not to you and me, because it's not our money and the team isn't going to have cap space in the next two years regardless, but this is where ownership steps in and says, "no, we aren't putting our team in the tax for a lesser team than we had last year and paying like 60M in dead money (once you include the tax hit) just to get a number 4 pick in a draft, which on average produces an average NBA starter."

Yes, from a pure basketball perspective, you can disregard Parsons completely and it's DeRozan for the number 4 pick. From a financial ownership perspective, not even close.

That's why I said it's only an OK trade if we're trying to rebuild. Then Parsons salary doesn't really matter as much.

But spending that kind of money on a useless player if we're trying to retool is really stupid, even if we are getting the #4 pick.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I would absolutely move Ibaka if a reasonable trade can be found regardless. I'd think about moving JV for the right deal, but wouldn't feel like it's necessary.

I probably wouldn't trade Lowry unless he wants out, because there is absolutely no way you get equivalent value back for him, he's too valuable to the Raptors still.

So your plan then is to strap the team with a useless salary while still trying to win with Kyle?

[tDotted]

Masai shopped DeMar last season after he was named to an All-NBA team and obviously didn't get much value back. Maybe there isn't as much demand out there for him as you may think

[Barolt]

So your plan then is to strap the team with a useless salary while still trying to win with Kyle?

Yes? There's still a lot of young talent on rookie contracts on the Raptors, and you get offensive space to explore how far those young guys can develop without DeMar eating up the possessions he does. That has value. Also, that useless salary expires at the same time as Lowry and Ibaka's(assuming you can't move him) contracts, which is also when those rookie contracts start having to convert to real contracts, so you can work the future from there.

I don't think the Raptors get THAT much worse by moving DeMar, personally.

[Bonus Jonas]

This is why the "retool" route is fucking stupid to me.

If you can't parlay DeMar+ ___ for a superstar then blow it up.

Or just wait it out.

Play another season. Give this team a chance with a new coach.

Maybe try to trade Ibaka if it makes sense, but honestly the more I think about it it’ll be a lot easier to just keep him, then trade him next year when he’s an expiring. At that point maybe Siakam can take over at PF.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Yes? There's still a lot of young talent on rookie contracts on the Raptors, and you get offensive space to explore how far those young guys can develop without DeMar eating up the possessions he does. That has value. Also, that useless salary expires at the same time as Lowry and Ibaka's(assuming you can't move him) contracts, which is also when those rookie contracts start having to convert to real contracts, so you can work the future from there.

I don't think the Raptors get THAT much worse by moving DeMar, personally.

But you do acknowledge they get worse... In which case I ask wtf is the point. If you do that Parsons deal you HAVE to follow that up with a total rebuild. It's just a waste of a year to go lose in the playoffs again when we could be tanking for another high pick.

[Other Scott]

That's why I said it's only an OK trade if we're trying to rebuild. Then Parsons salary doesn't really matter as much.

But spending that kind of money on a useless player if we're trying to retool is really stupid, even if we are getting the #4 pick.

It also proves why the rebuild won't work this year (sorry Shaolin) - because in order for MLSE to greenlight a rebuild, you'll probably have to shed a bunch of salary. Ownership is not going to accept paying the tax for a 30 win team with low attendance this year. So then you're only looking at teams with cap room to take on your stars. But of course if you're trading into cap space rather than for equivalent salary, the return you get is significantly worse, because the fact the team is now using the cap space on your player is built into the deal.

I just don't see a good path aside from trying again next year with an approximate equivalent amount of talent - whether that be with the core we have or whether it be shaking things up through trades, but still getting about the same back as you gave up.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Yes? There's still a lot of young talent on rookie contracts on the Raptors, and you get offensive space to explore how far those young guys can develop without DeMar eating up the possessions he does. That has value. Also, that useless salary expires at the same time as Lowry and Ibaka's(assuming you can't move him) contracts, which is also when those rookie contracts start having to convert to real contracts, so you can work the future from there.

I don't think the Raptors get THAT much worse by moving DeMar, personally.

I don't even think we have to trade Ibaka to tank.

You get Lowry, DD and JV out of here and don't re-sign FVV and this team is gonna be really bad.

[Barolt]

But you do acknowledge they get worse... In which case I ask wtf is the point. If you do that Parsons deal you HAVE to follow that up with a total rebuild. It's just a waste of a year to go lose in the playoffs again when we could be tanking for another high pick.

I mean, maybe. Also, DeMar has started to lose some of his explosiveness, isn't young, and high free throw rate/low three-point rate players age younger than most NBA players anyways, so there's a chance we get worse with DeMar, too?

[Bonus Jonas]

Yes? There's still a lot of young talent on rookie contracts on the Raptors, and you get offensive space to explore how far those young guys can develop without DeMar eating up the possessions he does. That has value. Also, that useless salary expires at the same time as Lowry and Ibaka's(assuming you can't move him) contracts, which is also when those rookie contracts start having to convert to real contracts, so you can work the future from there.

I don't think the Raptors get THAT much worse by moving DeMar, personally.

Ideally you open up cap space BEFORE you have to resign the young guys, so we can add a star through free agency and then use bird rights to sign our young guys.

[Barolt]

I don't even think we have to trade Ibaka to tank.

You get Lowry, DD and JV out of here and don't re-sign FVV and this team is gonna be really bad.

You aren't trading out $90 million in salary and getting nothing back though.

[Other Scott]

Yes? There's still a lot of young talent on rookie contracts on the Raptors, and you get offensive space to explore how far those young guys can develop without DeMar eating up the possessions he does. That has value. Also, that useless salary expires at the same time as Lowry and Ibaka's(assuming you can't move him) contracts, which is also when those rookie contracts start having to convert to real contracts, so you can work the future from there.

I don't think the Raptors get THAT much worse by moving DeMar, personally.

Well, if you think DeMar provides very little value to the team, then yes, the Parsons deal is a good deal - because then Demar is basically a useless salary anyways.

I happen to not think that.

[DanH]

The Parsons deal is only two seasons... It's not that bad when you talk about dead salary.

But if we are trading DeMar AND taking back dead salary, I'd be wanting more than one pick, even a really good one, in return. Unfortunately, MEM isn't really in a position to trade other 1st round picks. They won't want to trade Brooks, who was good for them last year.

Hmm. DeMar and Powell for Parsons, MEM 1st 2018, MEM 2nd 2018 and one of their minimum salaries works at the draft, if the Raps want out of that Powell deal. Though if they are moving DeMar they probably want to keep Powell. Still, saves the Raps a lot of money next year, leaves MEM a little shy of the tax, and gives them a star and a potential contributor while ridding them of two years of dead weight. Not sure MEM goes for it.

DAL is a far easier pitch, DeMar for Matthews and their pick. No salary retention, decent piece for next year that could be flipped at the deadline for assets. DAL has the cap room to make it work.

[MixxAOR]

You aren't trading out $90 million in salary and getting nothing back though.

exactly my thinking was. you trade demar for valuable pieces with a pick and then you trade those pieces for additional picks. You start accumulating picks ala Ainge rebuild model