Everything 2018 Off Season

[S.R.]

You also have to assume that Pops would want DeMar. He may not like his game and says no to him. They may blow it up and would just want picks/prospects or expiring contracts. We don't have the latter unfortunately.

No, this is missing the point that when fans get out the pitchforks because the time for trades is NOW, the only variable in this equation is your own GM and whether or not he has the balls and the brains to get you a top 5 player NOW with whatever is
currently on the roster. There is certainly no room for banal considerations like finding a GM who wants to trade with you while simultaneously beating out competing offers while still coming out with a net gain for your own team. None of that stuff, we just point to remarkable trades where a GM got fleeced 5 years ago and we all know if our own GM had any balls or brains at all he would do that exact same thing right NOW. Because I don't know about you guys and I don't know about our GM but I for one am here for championships and I say the tine for fielding a contender is NOW. I mean if not that and not right now then what the hell are we all doing here? May as well go watch curling.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

To some, no. If it all blows up then we fall ass backwards into a tank and 50% of this board is happy anyways. But again, that doesn't seem to be the philosophy of the team.

And maybe those aren't "amazing" assets, but many of them could be part of a solution going forward, or used to keep an all star more than 1 year. And I hate dismissing the 2019 pick as a "late first"..in reality it'd be the 2nd straight year of not picking. And dealing 3 core players for a flight risk who spent all year last year injured or unhappy? It would really suck to lose the safety net the 2019 provides it the bottom fell out on us next year

Really only Poeltl. Wright isn't that young and I think at best he becomes a low end starter, most likely a good backup PG in the league. Masai has struck really well with late 1sts before, so yeah that could hurt a little but it's not the end of the world. DeRozan's really the main thing you're losing and honestly with his playoff performances I don't really think that's a big deal especially if you're getting Kawhi for a year.

To sweeten the pot for the Spurs I'd even be willing to take back Pau's contract. Makes the numbers work and actually solves the issue of not having a backup center after trading Poeltl.

[DanH]

Honestly if the plan is to rebuild after next year anyway...

Why not just offer DeRozan, Wright, Poeltl and our 2019 1st for Kawhi? Yeah it sounds like a fucking lot but it actually gives us a chance to get to the finals potentially since we'd have the 2nd best player in the east (or best if LeBron goes west) and a pretty damn good team around him (with FVV re-signed we'd just have to shore up backup center with our mini-MLE or just give Ibaka those minutes).

If he leaves so what? You lost some prospects that aren't going to be stars anyway and actually gave it a REAL shot at winning the NBA title. OG and Kawhi would be probably the best defensive wing pairing in the league. Lowry would be the 2nd best player on the team (which I think he's capable of being on a championship team) and we'd have a real superstar leading the way.

For the Spurs they get a couple prospects as well as a pick and DeRozan's good enough to give them a go-to wing scorer and also keep them competitive in the western conference. If Kawhi wants out anyway, that's a pretty good haul that's probably not going to be matched by Boston who aren't going to be willing to give up Hayward or Kyrie if they have no idea if Kawhi's re-signing or not.

This is exactly the deal I was going to propose. Wright and Poeltl are the most immediate long term cost increases on the team (with Poeltl having an expensive 4th year and Wright being due a raise next summer when the team is crunched), and both play at positions of depth (C being less critical, with Ibaka being able to fill in and cheap depth likely being available). The 2019 pick is likely garbage, and DeMar is the obvious centrepiece to a trade. Keeping Lowry, OG and JV, and re-signing FVV means we are keeping our best players around Kawhi and making the best possible pitch for him to re-sign long term.

If teams like Boston are willing to shed their assets for a Kawhi rental risk, the Raps likely don't stand a chance. But with Kawhi being such a flight risk, is Boston or Philly willing to risk what looks like a solid long term trajectory for him? The Raptors are in that quasi-contender status with a shrinking window on their current best player (Lowry), so it makes all sorts of sense for them to take a risk like that. Helps that SAS are apparently excluding the entire Western Conference in their trade talks.

I think we get outbid, but it's not crazy to think it could conceivably happen.

[DanH]

Really only Poeltl. Wright isn't that young and I think at best he becomes a low end starter, most likely a good backup PG in the league. Masai has struck really well with late 1sts before, so yeah that could hurt a little but it's not the end of the world. DeRozan's really the main thing you're losing and honestly with his playoff performances I don't really think that's a big deal especially if you're getting Kawhi for a year.

To sweeten the pot for the Spurs I'd even be willing to take back Pau's contract. Makes the numbers work and actually solves the issue of not having a backup center after trading Poeltl.

I'd proposed Rudy Gay in this trade a while back but then he opted out (hilariously). So Pau definitely makes sense.

[DanH]

If LA signs Lebron and say Paul George this summer they will have no cap space next year to sign Kawhi. The easiest path to 3 superstars for the Lakers is trading for Kawhi when his salary is still “small” by sending out Deng and prospects.

Keep in mind, though, any team planning to use cap space and salary matching in trades to add players will do it in that order. Since salary matching allows them to add up to 125% of what they send out, but after the trade the cap space shrinks right away. So any team like Philly that wants to sign a max player and trade for one, will sign the free agent first, then trade for one. Same goes with the Lakers - sign two max free agents, then use trade salary matching to add your third guy.

You are right, it makes loads of sense for LAL to trade for Kawhi - but only once they've locked down other free agents. Meaning this song and dance could go on a while if that is the end game.

[white men can't jump]

Honestly if the plan is to rebuild after next year anyway...

Why not just offer DeRozan, Wright, Poeltl and our 2019 1st for Kawhi? Yeah it sounds like a fucking lot but it actually gives us a chance to get to the finals potentially since we'd have the 2nd best player in the east (or best if LeBron goes west) and a pretty damn good team around him (with FVV re-signed we'd just have to shore up backup center with our mini-MLE or just give Ibaka those minutes).

If he leaves so what? You lost some prospects that aren't going to be stars anyway and actually gave it a REAL shot at winning the NBA title. OG and Kawhi would be probably the best defensive wing pairing in the league. Lowry would be the 2nd best player on the team (which I think he's capable of being on a championship team) and we'd have a real superstar leading the way.

For the Spurs they get a couple prospects as well as a pick and DeRozan's good enough to give them a go-to wing scorer and also keep them competitive in the western conference. If Kawhi wants out anyway, that's a pretty good haul that's probably not going to be matched by Boston who aren't going to be willing to give up Hayward or Kyrie if they have no idea if Kawhi's re-signing or not.

I would be totally fine with this deal. The one guy I really don't want to send back is OG if they go after Kawhi.

A lineup with Kawhi, JV, Lowry, OG, Siakam, FVV, Miles and Ibaka is nothing to sneeze at and would be a very tough lineup for any team in the East to beat. We'd get better on both ends.

I also don't see "star" in Poeltl or Wright, either. I like both their games, but Poeltl's weaknesses have been quite glaring, and Wright's old for a "young" player and a bit injury prone.

Would the Spurs take that offer? No clue. I think it doesn't really give them the kind of high-value asset a team trading a top 10 player wants. No lottery pick, and the star talent they get is 2 years older than Kawhi. Thing is, it tends to get harder to get value during the season, when playoff teams will be more reluctant to part with rotation pieces, and bad teams will feel like they can just wait for free agency to make a run at him. LAL can easily take that approach if they strike out in free agency.

[The Great One]

Just to steal a Josh Donaldson quote from a couple of years ago:

"This isn't the 'try' league; it's the 'get it done' league."

This management could use that quote.

Stop trying dumb things, stop with all the dumb experiments like 5 men bunch units. How did it go in the playoffs? it doesn't work. You need your stars to play like stars in the playoffs. Period.

Stop hyping EVERY young players/draft picks. We don't have a Jason Tatum or a Ben Simmons type of young player and that's a fact. Don't even mention OG's name lol, he's NOWHERE near in that level.

Take a risk, do somethin. It SHOULD be pretty obvious by now that the core of this team can't get it done.

[DanH]

Just to steal a Josh Donaldson quote from a couple of years ago:

"This isn't the 'try' league; it's the 'get it done' league."

This management could use that quote.

Stop trying dumb things, stop with all the dumb experiments like 5 men bunch units. How did it go in the playoffs? it doesn't work. You need your stars to play like stars in the playoffs. Period.

Stop hyping EVERY young players/draft picks. We don't have a Jason Tatum or a Ben Simmons type of young player and that's a fact. Don't even mention OG's name lol, he's NOWHERE near in that level.

Take a risk, do somethin. It SHOULD be pretty obvious by now that the core of this team can't get it done.

The 5 man bench unit was quite successful in the playoffs. FVV was just hurt for a lot of the Wizards series. And we lost a lot of sample because the coaching staff was super dumb and went away from the two lineups that actually worked against the Cavs (the starting lineup and the all bench unit both got demolished when the coaching staff panicked halfway through game 2).

But with the sample we had, the two most used lineups in the playoffs were those two standards. And they had +7 (starters) and +18 (bench) net ratings.

I agree that DeRozan being a flaming pile of garbage in the playoffs was the one big non-Casey issue these playoffs. Hence my desire to move on from him. But it wouldn't be crazy to see what he can do under Nurse - coaching really was the biggest issue this spring (like most springs, except even more so because Lowry was healthy and predictably therefore very good). I'd certainly prefer he be moved though.

[The Great One]

The 5 man bench unit was quite successful in the playoffs. FVV was just hurt for a lot of the Wizards series. And we lost a lot of sample because the coaching staff was super dumb and went away from the two lineups that actually worked against the Cavs (the starting lineup and the all bench unit both got demolished when the coaching staff panicked halfway through game 2).

But with the sample we had, the two most used lineups in the playoffs were those two standards. And they had +7 (starters) and +18 (bench) net ratings.

I agree that DeRozan being a flaming pile of garbage in the playoffs was the one big non-Casey issue these playoffs. Hence my desire to move on from him. But it wouldn't be crazy to see what he can do under Nurse - coaching really was the biggest issue this spring (like most springs, except even more so because Lowry was healthy and predictably therefore very good). I'd certainly prefer he be moved though.

Casey is no Brad Stevens or Phil Jackson but coaching wasn't the issue. The issue was we don't have a LEGIT star.

And their two "stars" disappeared(again) when it matters the most.

The goal is championship right? EVERY team that's won a championship has at least 1 or 2 superstars on their team. The exception obviously was the 04 Pistons. But that team has a HOF coach and a future HOF player in Ben Wallace.

[Barolt]

Casey is no Brad Stevens or Phil Jackson but coaching wasn't the issue. The issue was we don't have a LEGIT star.

And their two "stars" disappeared(again) when it matters the most.

The goal is championship right? EVERY team that's won a championship has at least 1 or 2 superstars on their team. The exception obviously was the 04 Pistons. But that team has a HOF coach and a future HOF player in Ben Wallace.

Lumping DeRozan and Lowry together this postseason is just plain wrong. Lowry was extremely good. DeMar was... not.

[The Great One]

Lumping DeRozan and Lowry together this postseason is just plain wrong. Lowry was extremely good. DeMar was... not.

Historically he's just as bad as DeRozan in thr playoffs. If not worse.

And please stop talkin like Lowry was Superman against the Cavs. He was average in G1. He was invisible in G2 like the rest of the team. He was great in the 4th quarter of G3. He scored 5 points in G4.

[Barolt]

Historically he's just as bad as DeRozan in thr playoffs. If not worse.

And please stop talkin like Lowry was Superman against the Cavs. He was average in G1. He was invisible in G2 like the rest of the team. He was great in the 4th quarter of G3. He scored 5 points in G4.

Lowry's career playoff VORP is +2.4, his WS/48 are .150.

DeMar's career playoff VORP is -0.2, his WS/48 are .039.

Lowry is, historically, worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season.

DeMar is, historically, objectively a bad player in the playoffs.

There is a LARGE difference.

[DanH]

Casey is no Brad Stevens or Phil Jackson but coaching wasn't the issue. The issue was we don't have a LEGIT star.

And their two "stars" disappeared(again) when it matters the most.

The goal is championship right? EVERY team that's won a championship has at least 1 or 2 superstars on their team. The exception obviously was the 04 Pistons. But that team has a HOF coach and a future HOF player in Ben Wallace.

Dwane Casey might have had the most embarrassing coaching performance in his playoff career, which is saying something. He was awful, and actively cost the Raptors games against both their playoff opponents.

DeRozan was awful as well. Lowry was actually really good, for the most part.

I don't disagree that having a bonafide superstar would be a good thing. They should do whatever they can do to get one of those, not that that is easy to do. That's entirely separate from insane criticisms like the front office trying "crazy" stuff that actually worked great.

[The Great One]

Lowry's career playoff VORP is +2.4, his WS/48 are .150.

DeMar's career playoff VORP is -0.2, his WS/48 are .039.

Lowry is, historically, worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season.

DeMar is, historically, objectively a bad player in the playoffs.

There is a LARGE difference.

I don't give a shit about those numbers. Lowry is known as a perennial playoff choker.

Not sure if you've been living under the tock the last 5 years. But EVERY year before the playoffs begin, the talk has ALWAYS been: Will Kyle Lowry show up?

I get it though. You hate DeRozan and i'm guessing you're a big Kyle Lowry fan. I get it.

[Barolt]

I don't give a shit about those numbers. Lowry is known as a perennial playoff choker.

Not sure if you've been living under the tock the last 5 years. But EVERY year before the playoffs begin, the talk has ALWAYS been: Will Kyle Lowry show up?

I get it though. You hate DeRozan and i'm guessing you're a big Kyle Lowry fan. I get it.

I don't 'hate' DeRozan. I acknowledge his limitations. I'm a big Kyle Lowry fan, because Kyle Lowry is REALLY good.