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  • jimmie wrote: View Post
    How about nothing is going to convince him to stay? How about we start there, because based on everything out there, that’s closer to the truth than anything being discussed here.

    Would anyone make the trade - either JV or DD as the key piece, or KL even, plus 2 or 3 of Siakam/Poeltl/OG/Wright - if you knew right now that’s it was a rental? No? Because it takes an awful lot of positivity to believe Leonard might stay past one year. Plus he hasnt played a game in what, a year? I personally would have a lot of Qs about his ability to stay healthy, especially when being asked to give up what many believed a few weeks ago to be the best young depth of any team in the NBA.
    You can give up guys like Wright and/or Poeltl. They should be easy enough to replace.

    And the risk is minimal if DeMar or Lowry are outgoing. If this team stagnates another year, one or both of them will be traded next summer.

    Would they want an aging Lowry for 2 years? Seems unlikely.

    You can build a package around JV, but he can opt out next summer. Would that mean giving up a more prized piece like OG or Siakam? Because that is exactly the wrong kind of deal to make. Nevermind that with JV's contract status and the potentially awkward fit next to Aldridge, the Spurs may not be so hot on that deal unless you add a bunch of sweetener.

    Now if Masai can get Pop drunk and somehow trade Ibaka and a couple of picks for Kawhi, that would be the miracle that starts the First Church of Masai.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
      Well a lot of the things I said are facts such as DeMar being an all-star, All-NBA and Team USA guy as well as DeMar being known as a guy who builds great relationships with players on his team and around the league. Based on those facts I'm making an assumption (this is now an opinion) that retaining DeMar would increase the likelihood we could retain Kawhi Leonard, because relationships matter a lot in the NBA (another fact) and DeMar has shown to be better at forming these kind of relationships than guys like Kyle and JV from what we know.

      Not really sure what my ego has to do with it, but I'm just sharing my thoughts on the situation like anyone else. I was just bringing up another possibility for a Kawhi trade since everyone kind of zeroed in on the DeRozan one (which I'm on board with btw --- hell I was one of the first to suggest it --- this is just another, possibly better option).
      I can't bold anything on Tapatalk, but there is literally zero evidence to suggest DeMar is better than Lowry or JV (JV seems to be a very well liked dude in the locker room) at forming relationships. None whatsoever.

      Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        I can't bold anything on Tapatalk, but there is literally zero evidence to suggest DeMar is better than Lowry or JV (JV seems to be a very well liked dude in the locker room) at forming relationships. None whatsoever.

        Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
        JV I could see your argument.

        Lowry... I mean man this is a guy that had tumultuous relationship after tumultuous relationship before landing in Toronto (and still had issues here, just to a lesser extent).

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        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          You can give up guys like Wright and/or Poeltl. They should be easy enough to replace.

          And the risk is minimal if DeMar or Lowry are outgoing. If this team stagnates another year, one or both of them will be traded next summer.

          Would they want an aging Lowry for 2 years? Seems unlikely.

          You can build a package around JV, but he can opt out next summer. Would that mean giving up a more prized piece like OG or Siakam? Because that is exactly the wrong kind of deal to make. Nevermind that with JV's contract status and the potentially awkward fit next to Aldridge, the Spurs may not be so hot on that deal unless you add a bunch of sweetener.

          Now if Masai can get Pop drunk and somehow trade Ibaka and a couple of picks for Kawhi, that would be the miracle that starts the First Church of Masai.

          Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
          Ok, then, in my case, the only deal that makes sense is Ibaka, Poeltl and Wright. No picks. None of JV, Lowry or Derozan. That way, you give Kawhi the best possible lineup to play with (and therefore want to stay) while not giving up any of the players that will be necessary to continue competing in the East past the Lowry/Ibaka/Valanciunas contract window.

          I personally have no interest in a rebuild in 2021 and I don’t think Ujiri does either. If Kawhi were to come and stay, great, mission accomplished, still competitive. If he doesn’t come, great, you have a war chest for FA at that time when the old guys are off the books. For the record, wouldn’t Leonard prefer a team with a future past 2020 as well? Lowry will not be here (and won’t be the player he is now anyway); Derozan is already out in the trade; do you think JV and whatever OG and Siakam turn into by then will be enough star power for Kawhi?

          If you make a trade that compromises the future for one year of Leonard with no assurance he will stay (and I maintain that he won’t stay in TO in any scenario) that’s just a dumb roster management move. One a fan would make, not a good GM.
          Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            JV I could see your argument.

            Lowry... I mean man this is a guy that had tumultuous relationship after tumultuous relationship before landing in Toronto (and still had issues here, just to a lesser extent).
            Lowry had issues with coaches more than anything. He's a more prickly personality, but that doesn't mean he doesn't form good relationships with teammates.

            In Toronto, from what little we have been exposed to, he's been a great teammate. Has teammates over to his house. Tries to encourage and challenge the young guys to grow. Tries to be a leader. Not sure where the issues are.

            Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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            • jimmie wrote: View Post
              How about nothing is going to convince him to stay? How about we start there, because based on everything out there, that’s closer to the truth than anything being discussed here.

              Would anyone make the trade - either JV or DD as the key piece, or KL even, plus 2 or 3 of Siakam/Poeltl/OG/Wright - if you knew right now that’s it was a rental? No? Because it takes an awful lot of positivity to believe Leonard might stay past one year. Plus he hasnt played a game in what, a year? I personally would have a lot of Qs about his ability to stay healthy, especially when being asked to give up what many believed a few weeks ago to be the best young depth of any team in the NBA.
              I think that's the only safe assumption, that we get Kawhi for 1 year. You obviously don't value 1 year of Kawhi as much as the rest of us.

              I can say for certain a package of Ibaka + Poeltl + Wright will not get you Kawhi.

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              • Primer wrote: View Post
                I think that's the only safe assumption, that we get Kawhi for 1 year. You obviously don't value 1 year of Kawhi as much as the rest of us.

                I can say for certain a package of Ibaka + Poeltl + Wright will not get you Kawhi.
                So closing lineups would be either

                Lowry/DD/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka(Poeltl)
                or
                Lowry/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka/JV

                I feel like the former is better but I guess most disagree and don't think DeMar has any value on the floor with Kawhi.

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                • Primer wrote: View Post
                  I think that's the only safe assumption, that we get Kawhi for 1 year. You obviously don't value 1 year of Kawhi as much as the rest of us.

                  I can say for certain a package of Ibaka + Poeltl + Wright will not get you Kawhi.
                  That’s true. I don’t value one year of Kawhi at all. This team is good already. Really good. They just changed their coach, which most here think will make them better. Lebron is not in the East anymore. The path to the Finals has never been easier. Not easy, but never easier. I also don’t value getting to the Finals that much, by the way, since no one is beating GSW unless disaster strikes the Bay Area. So one year of Kawhi that leaves us with the same taste as one year without Kawhi? I’ll stick with the developing roster and see what Siakam and OG and Fred develop into (I agree with giving up Wright and Poeltl being a loss that could be mitigated; not so much with those other 3) over one year of Kawhi.
                  Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                  • Zach Lowe's new podcast said interesting things about Raps/Kawhi

                    -Windhorst believes Raps are in the drivers seat

                    -Zach thinks it's a very real possibilty to get him

                    -Zach's trade= DD, Siakim, and a pick

                    -Winny thinks OG has to be included

                    -Windy also said he thinks the lakers and sixers have given up

                    It's toward the end of the pod if you want to listen for yourself!
                    Last edited by rebelrouser89; Mon Jul 16, 2018, 06:29 PM.

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                    • It's certainly plausible that that's where the discussion is at right now, with OG's inclusion being the line in the sand between the two teams.

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                      • I would try my best not to include Siakam or OG in any trade, but we'll see what happens... if anything happens.

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                        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                          So closing lineups would be either

                          Lowry/DD/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka(Poeltl)
                          or
                          Lowry/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka/JV

                          I feel like the former is better but I guess most disagree and don't think DeMar has any value on the floor with Kawhi.
                          DD in the closing line up in the playoffs hurts.. specifically defensively. He'll have to cover someone.. and that someone is going to be shooting in the high 60's or 70's. Hope Nurse has him coming off the bench for someone like Wright or even Powell.

                          Plus we'll be giving up a lot of boards.

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                          • I'm so pissed off with DD's defense against the Cavs series. That was just so hard to watch. It wasn't the offense... and I really don't know why you guys are spending so much time talking about fit on offense. We had a great offense with DeMar in the playoffs despite his play. It was the bloody defense is why we lost.

                            Can Lowry/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka cover 5 guys at once? If so than keep him. If not then trade him.

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                            • rebelrouser89 wrote: View Post
                              Zach Lowe's new podcast said interesting things about Raps/Kawhi

                              -Windhorst believes Raps are in the drivers seat

                              -Zach thinks it's a very real possibilty to get him

                              -Zach's trade= DD, Siakim, and a pick

                              -Winny thinks OG has to be included

                              -Windy also said he thinks the lakers and sixers have given up

                              It's toward the end of the pod if you want to listen for yourself!
                              Clippers might be in play here. Maybe they want to do a 3-team deal with someone going to SA and Kawhi going to LAC? Is it a coincidence that Masai wanted SGA in the draft yet the team that Kawhi is willing to go to drafted him? It could be, but I suspect something fishy there.

                              And they can't trade SGA after 30 days from when he signed his deal. Shai signed his contract on July 5th.. so that means.. they can't trade him until at least August 5th.

                              SA gets DeMar.. we get Shai and a player like Harris. LAC gets Kawhi.

                              Not sure if $$$ works.. but that's a Kawhi trade with Toronto involved that keeps Kawhi happy in LA.

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                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                                Nice try but I think the corner 3s were an aberration last year. He's been around 40% every season but one since 2011-12 from the corners.

                                You would've been better off just saying OG isn't a threat off the ball either. That's a lot easier than trying to argue that OG is a threat off the ball and DeMar somehow isn't when they have the same catch and shoot 3PT skills and DeMar's skills AFTER the catch are on a different planet from OG's.
                                This year was the first even remotely high volume corner three season he's had in a half decade, and he posted sub 30% numbers on 90 attempts. His career high in corner attempts is 94, with most seasons sub-50. And he posts generally a slightly sub-40% on that small sample that comes few and far between. OG attempted 107 this year, shooting 44%. In far, far fewer minutes than DeMar ever plays.

                                The very absolute best we can say for DeMar us we technically don't know 100% for sure that he would suffer as a secondary option. We're only like 90% sure.

                                And heck, I could take your advice and say that DeMar might possibly space the floor as well as OG, who at the least we should admit is unproven and may regress with his floor spacing. And even then, OG is significantly more valuable for the other half of the game at the other end of the floor. In his rookie year he was way better defensively than DeMar.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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