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  • This whole discussion has seemed to focused entirely on Doncic, as if he's the only viable option if we're trading into the top of the draft.

    It is possible he's gone by #4-5, and it is possible that Masai might like someone else more at that spot regardless of Doncic's availability. Maybe he'd rather take Porter Jr., whose draft stock is a bit more in flux since he was injured most of the season.

    It's also possible Masai can't move up that high shopping DeMar, but maybe he can find a lower lotto pick possibly without moving DeMar. The Clips have 2 picks late in the lotto and no PG. Maybe Masai moves Lowry to draft someone like Shae Gilgeous-Alexander, a hometown kid with excellent potential at the PG spot who shows the kind of physical and mental traits (freak body and arguably hardest worker in the draft) Masai clearly covets.

    I still think the most likely scenario is that Masai doesn't blow this team up quite yet, though. Still, if he can find lottery value for one or both of our top guys, it might be the right time to start rebuilding.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon May 21, 2018, 12:28 PM.

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    • Masai ain't going to blow up a 59 win team. He will kick it another season before blowing it up in the summer of 2019.

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      • Hotshot wrote: View Post
        Masai ain't going to blow up a 59 win team. He will kick it another season before blowing it up in the summer of 2019.
        And if the team has another underachieving playoffs, do the players' value go down? They'll all be a year older and have another year of evidence to suggest that they're at least as much the problem as Casey was.

        Not to mention some trading partners will also be at a different point in their building. You might be able to get Memphis' high pick this year for DeMar, but almost zero chance they would make the same deal next year if they're back in the lottery, as they might elect to blow up their own team. If Masai waits until 2019, he may find his options to be worse and could actually prolong a rebuild.

        There's also the chance Masai could "blow it up" without sucking. Once again, we have a good set of young players. There's at least a chance we could trade someone like DeMar and/or Lowry and still be a competitive team. Maybe not 59 wins, but what do 59 wins matter if when you get to the playoffs you play more like a 45 win team?

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        • Lowry and Ibaka contracts will be easier to move come summer 2019 then now. Also you seem to forget this is a business that wants to put butts in the seat as their first priority. So Masai can still use the "Its Casey's fault for losing to the Cavs, another coach could do better" before I tear it down completely excuse.

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          • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
            Really boys ?

            So a guy who has played against the men... in a league thats better than the NCAA ...and got voted in as the MVP of that league as a 19 year old is somehow considerably more suspect than Deandre Ayton...., Ayton who couldn't get his team from the incredibly wimpy PAC 12 past the PLAY IN game for the NCAA tournament populated by 18 year olds has a better resume.

            This is ethnocentric thinking at best.... and 6 inch thick bullshit at worst..
            Not to belittle the Euroleague MVP award, but looking at past winners...... this ain't exactly a murderer's row:

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            • golden wrote: View Post
              Not to belittle the Euroleague MVP award, but looking at past winners...... this ain't exactly a murderer's row:

              It's not what Doncic is doing that's rare, it's doing what Doncic is doing at Doncic's age that's rare, but you're ignoring that part.

              Kyle Singler won Final Four MVP, but we don't devalue the accomplishments of college players because of that.
              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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              • Hotshot wrote: View Post
                Lowry and Ibaka contracts will be easier to move come summer 2019 then now. Also you seem to forget this is a business that wants to put butts in the seat as their first priority. So Masai can still use the "Its Casey's fault for losing to the Cavs, another coach could do better" before I tear it down completely excuse.
                Don't confuse "easier to move" with "able to get more value".

                Lowry and Ibaka's contracts become more attractive as expiring deals, but less attractive as they become rentals and are a year older. Teams don't give up value for a piece that can walk in a season. A team might be willing to give you a mid-1st rounder for Lowry if they will get a couple of years of him to try and elevate the team (hence why I look at the Clips as a possibility). The chances of that happening next summer go down.

                Masai can still use the coach excuse, but this is Toronto and filling seats won't be a huge problem. If he waits another year he can actually prolong the rebuild if he is unable to get good long-term value for any of DeMar, Lowry and Ibaka (well Ibaka is unlikely to get you much value either way).

                Basically you'd probably end up doing things like trading these guys for Parsons-type contracts but without the high-lotto pick attached. Or the kind of trade Memphis got for Gay when we acquired him, a mediocre Ed Davis type prospect, a low value pick and an expiring role player like Jose. And then you're basically going into tank mode, which can take years for a turnaround. Our young pieces that we currently have might also have to be traded to bottom out, because frankly their window might also be too far apart with a new crop of prospects that start coming in a couple of years from now when the tank starts and they might make us too good to get good lotto chances. This could lead to more seasons of "we have nothing to sell fans on" basketball than if he was willing to start making changes now.

                So what's better?
                -Getting higher value for your veteran all-stars now, possibly still being competitive with a deep, young team (but not a contender) and getting a head start on a rebuild that could happen without ever all-out tanking, and you'd still probably be able to sell tickets
                -Waiting and getting lower value and less likely to be long-term value for your all-stars. Then probably just trying to shed pieces to tank to get something like a top 5 pick two years from now (1 year on the "new coach" ride and then the tank doesn't start til after), which might require trading some of our current young pieces as well just to help tank. You'd probably have a harder time selling tickets and it could take the team longer to be competitive again.

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                • I'm not saying Masai should trade DeMar, Kyle and/or Serge, but he has to start thinking more long-term this summer. If there are legitimately good chances to increase the team's ceiling in the long-term with moves he can start making now, that takes priority over spinning wheels with the same core for one more year.

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                  • Comment


                    • Barolt wrote: View Post
                      It's not what Doncic is doing that's rare, it's doing what Doncic is doing at Doncic's age that's rare, but you're ignoring that part.

                      Kyle Singler won Final Four MVP, but we don't devalue the accomplishments of college players because of that.
                      The rough college equivalent would be freshmen winning the Naismith award, where the last 2 freshman to win it were: Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis. Conversely, Sergio Rodriguez and Nando de Colo would be like juniors & seniors winning the college MVP.... where you have guys like MJ and Tim Duncan winning that. In theory, if Euroleague was that much better than NCAA, then Sergio and Nando should come back to the NBA and at least be solid starters on their teams, instead of fringe rotation guys.

                      I think you'd have to conclude that freshmen performing extremely well in NCAA is a much better predictor of NBA success. And that reason is athleticism and physical tools, which Doncic is average. Projecting Doncic based on Euroleague MVP, even taking into account his young age, is a crapshoot, IMO.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Not to belittle the Euroleague MVP award, but looking at past winners...... this ain't exactly a murderer's row:

                        I'm guessing you're also about to tell us Ayton didn't do anything special in the NCAA either?

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                        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          I'm not saying Masai should trade DeMar, Kyle and/or Serge, but he has to start thinking more long-term this summer. If there are legitimately good chances to increase the team's ceiling in the long-term with moves he can start making now, that takes priority over spinning wheels with the same core for one more year.
                          I get what you are saying but I just don't see Masai as the brazen type to pull off these trades this summer. Instead of firing Casey last summer, the excuse was " different style of play". Masai doesn't like big changes done fast. He will take his sweet time.

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                          • Hotshot wrote: View Post
                            I get what you are saying but I just don't see Masai as the brazen type to pull off these trades this summer. Instead of firing Casey last summer, the excuse was " different style of play". Masai doesn't like big changes done fast. He will take his sweet time.
                            Last summer the team was not in a good position for changes. Lowry and Ibaka were free agents. Stability was key. He couldn't risk a coaching change influencing their decisions, and he couldn't let them walk for nothing from an asset management standpoint.

                            This year is different. The value of our key players is high, but the ceiling of the team is more in doubt than ever before. It wouldn't be brazen, it would almost be expected. We now know he has been frustrated with DeMar. Any change on that front could lead to a domino effect where it only makes sense to make wholesale changes to the core.

                            I don't think Masai is going to be shy about making changes, and we frankly don't know if he'd like to do it fast because Masai has literally never been in a position where he had to choose to make big changes or not.

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                            • Not shy about making changes, but he wouldn't be in a hurray making them. I am sure someone like DeRozan can be traded but it has to be for the right asking price as Masai not desperate for getting hosed or the team falling significantly behind in the winning column.

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                              • Hotshot wrote: View Post
                                Not shy about making changes, but he wouldn't be in a hurray making them. I am sure someone like DeRozan can be traded but it has to be for the right asking price as Masai not desperate for getting hosed or the team falling significantly behind in the winning column.
                                So what you're saying is Masai would rather make them slowly, and also slowly fall in the win column, basically becoming more and more of a treadmill team, which is exactly what he said he didn't want this team to be?

                                He could start having to worry about his own job if this is the approach he takes.

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