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  • #31
    JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Honestly, if you just swap out Derozan for Doncic, I think we're a better team next year.
    Compared to guys he's facing in the NBA he looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy. He's NBA ready skillwise and may very post some nice stats right away but he will get lit up in the playoffs until he gets in NBA shape. Also he can't coexist with Kyle seeing how he keeps telling everyone he's a PG and needs the ball in his hands.

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    • #32
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      Compared to guys he's facing in the NBA he looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy. He's NBA ready skillwise and may very post some nice stats right away but he will get lit up in the playoffs until he gets in NBA shape. Also he can't coexist with Kyle seeing how he keeps telling everyone he's a PG and needs the ball in his hands.
      The implication being that he would get lit up in the playoffs worse than DeMar does, which is... possible, I guess?

      Every other PG and high usage player on the team manages to coexist with Kyle, so I think your concerns are a little overblown.

      I don't know that I'd say the Raptors would be better right away - but I also don't think they'd necessarily be much worse.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • #33
        DanH wrote: View Post
        If the value is there for Lowry, sure. No one (or at least not me, which is all that matters) is opposed to that. Some question whether the value will be there (I think Lowry's value is very situational, and the return for him will only be good if the right teams end up in a position where they are in a hurry to add talent), and if it's not, and he could more easily be leveraged as a large expiring/rental next off-season, there is no harm in seeing what the team can do without DeMar and going head first into the new offensive system. Rushing to move Lowry this off-season for a mediocre return would be silly.

        That said, my biggest concern is that if Lowry is moved, DD should definitely be moved. DeMar's value as a mid-peak player is highest with term on his contract, not as a rental.
        If the consensus here is that this team isn't good enough now to advance to the finals and that Kyle is at the end of his prime then it's better to deal him now and extract whatever value there is before he falls off. It's a tough business.

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        • #34
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          If the consensus here is that this team isn't good enough now to advance to the finals and that Kyle is at the end of his prime then it's better to deal him now and extract whatever value there is before he falls off. It's a tough business.
          Agreed! Perhaps his value is greater next year though, in which case that is when they should trade him. If the best offer this summer is a late 1st or something, that's not a return that makes a real difference, and you wait out the market next year or at the deadline to see if you can get a team to really bite.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • #35
            DanH wrote: View Post
            The implication being that he would get lit up in the playoffs worse than DeMar does, which is... possible, I guess?

            Every other PG and high usage player on the team manages to coexist with Kyle, so I think your concerns are a little overblown.

            I don't know that I'd say the Raptors would be better right away - but I also don't think they'd necessarily be much worse.
            Doncic is young now, probably at his quickest. That goes with age, which is troubling in his case being he's starting at a disadvantage. The reason he's not going #1 is because of athletics, it's limiting his perceived upside. He may put up nice numbers but he may never be a winner because of his athletic limitations. Who is Doncic guarding in the playoffs? You can kick DeRozan's D but he's a far superior defender to Doncic.
            Last edited by Apollo; Tue Jun 19, 2018, 09:22 AM.

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            • #36
              DanH wrote: View Post
              Agreed! Perhaps his value is greater next year though, in which case that is when they should trade him. If the best offer this summer is a late 1st or something, that's not a return that makes a real difference, and you wait out the market next year or at the deadline to see if you can get a team to really bite.
              There are some high risk/reward guys in the middle of the 1st who could accelerate a Raps reboot by years if Ujiri hits. If they could work a deal for a mid round pick I'd do it and roll the dice.

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              • #37
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                If the consensus here is that this team isn't good enough now to advance to the finals and that Kyle is at the end of his prime then it's better to deal him now and extract whatever value there is before he falls off. It's a tough business.
                You don't tank a 59 win team. So if you want a tank/rebuild.. it's not going to happen. Just need to make peace with that. Trading Lowry is a tank move. He's had as much of an impact at age 31/32 than Vince did as a Raptor.

                Tanking is typically a natural thing. It happens when your best players leave town (eg, Lebron in Cleveland the first time around) or their bodies give out (eg, Dirk, Kobe). It's generally not forced.. and when that happens a GM is probably going to get axed sooner than later (eg, Hinkie).

                Masai created a 3 year window. We are in year 2.

                The reason the Raptors failed last season was because of one guy. Pure and simple. That guy might go out West this summer and that problem fixes itself.

                And I know Boston is going to get their guys back and Philly is going to just organically be better.. but the Raptors wouldn't be mentally afraid of those teams unless if Lebron is playing for them.

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                • #38
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Doncic is young now, probably at his quickest. The goes with age, which is troubling in his case being he's starting at a disadvantage. The reason he's not going #1 is because of athletics, it's limiting his perceived upside. He may put up nice numbers but he may never be a winner because of his athletic limitations. Who is Doncic guarding in the playoffs? You can kick DeRozan's D but he's a far superior defender to Doncic.
                  I don't know that you have any evidence of that last statement. DeRozan's issues defensively are not physical.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • #39
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    There are some high risk/reward guys in the middle of the 1st who could accelerate a Raps reboot by years if Ujiri hits. If they could work a deal for a mid round pick I'd do it and roll the dice.
                    Sure, that is quite in line with what I said.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • #40
                      DanH wrote: View Post
                      The implication being that he would get lit up in the playoffs worse than DeMar does, which is... possible, I guess?

                      Every other PG and high usage player on the team manages to coexist with Kyle, so I think your concerns are a little overblown.

                      I don't know that I'd say the Raptors would be better right away - but I also don't think they'd necessarily be much worse.
                      Doncic is that good? I'm trying hard to get on board with this guy, but I'm always really weary when it comes to European players whom aren't accustomed to the North American style of defences. I'm certainly not putting him anywhere near DeMar's level yet though.

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                      • #41
                        LJ2 wrote: View Post
                        Doncic is that good? I'm trying hard to get on board with this guy, but I'm always really weary when it comes to European players whom aren't accustomed to the North American style of defences. I'm certainly not putting him anywhere near DeMar's level yet though.
                        Doncic looks really good. I don't think he's nearly at the level DeMar is (yet) but I also think very little of the team's success is reliant on DeMar anyway.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • #42
                          planetmars wrote: View Post
                          You don't tank a 59 win team. So if you want a tank/rebuild.. it's not going to happen. Just need to make peace with that. Trading Lowry is a tank move. He's had as much of an impact at age 31/32 than Vince did as a Raptor.

                          Tanking is typically a natural thing. It happens when your best players leave town (eg, Lebron in Cleveland the first time around) or their bodies give out (eg, Dirk, Kobe). It's generally not forced.. and when that happens a GM is probably going to get axed sooner than later (eg, Hinkie).

                          Masai created a 3 year window. We are in year 2.

                          The reason the Raptors failed last season was because of one guy. Pure and simple. That guy might go out West this summer and that problem fixes itself.

                          And I know Boston is going to get their guys back and Philly is going to just organically be better.. but the Raptors wouldn't be mentally afraid of those teams unless if Lebron is playing for them.
                          Sorry, I didn't know there was a rule book on this. Ujiri is a shrewd businessman and I think common sense takes precedence over past glory. The fact is this team has gone as far as it can go and there is nothing they can realistically do to take the leap to an elite level without reloading. He's extracted as much on court value as these guys are capable of. Time to flip high priced assets into new pieces.

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                          • #43
                            How so, if DeMar taking over a lot of the ball handling duties is what lead to Lowry have a good playoff run?

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                            • #44
                              DanH wrote: View Post
                              Doncic looks really good. I don't think he's nearly at the level DeMar is (yet) but I also think very little of the team's success is reliant on DeMar anyway.
                              How so, if DeMar taking over a lot of the ball handling duties is what lead to Lowry have a good playoff run?

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                              • #45
                                DanH wrote: View Post
                                I don't know that you have any evidence of that last statement. DeRozan's issues defensively are not physical.
                                I didn't suggest they were but Doncic's are. He will be exploited. It will be tough to win when your best guy is getting steamrolled nightly in the post season. He can only set the tone on one side of the court, you can't win like that unless you have Warriors level luck.

                                I'm also not a proponent of keeping DD.

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