Team run it back

[DanH]

I've always said, it makes more sense to keep treading water in the 2nd tier where you're 1 or 2 (or because of golden State, more but you get the idea) moves away, than swim all the way back down to the bottom where you're 10 or 12 moves away again

The problem is timing. We are currently one or two moves away primarily because Lowry is a borderline superstar, and we have an all-star beside him, as well as some very good players to support them. Lowry aging completely changes that equation - I don't think even the most optimistic DeRozan fans think he'll be making the leap to a top 10 player, so as Lowry declines, the team moves further and further from contention, and as our young players get raises, we don't gain much flexibility to add with cap room - meaning we have no viable replacement for the superstar role, unless OG miraculously ends up there.

I have no issue trying to win with this team for the next couple of seasons (ideally with a tweak here or a big move there to maximize their shot to win). But beyond that, the decision point of tying ourselves down to DeRozan long term, with the limited potential for adding a better piece beside him, might define the next half decade or more of this team.

So if you are of the mindset that this window will close with Lowry's decline, then the team needs to plan for another road to success - because keeping it all together long term and having an aging Lowry be the 2nd best player to DeRozan is a choice that will lead to worse teams than we currently have. And once you decide that the team is going to move away from this core within the next two years - then it only makes sense to at least consider the return you could get for this core if you move away from them a little early.

[MixxAOR]

Tank is coming sooner or later. Lowry is aging and Derozan has obvious limitations and is not young either.

[Puffer]

The problem is timing. We are currently one or two moves away primarily because Lowry is a borderline superstar, and we have an all-star beside him, as well as some very good players to support them. Lowry aging completely changes that equation - I don't think even the most optimistic DeRozan fans think he'll be making the leap to a top 10 player, so as Lowry declines, the team moves further and further from contention, and as our young players get raises, we don't gain much flexibility to add with cap room - meaning we have no viable replacement for the superstar role, unless OG miraculously ends up there.

I have no issue trying to win with this team for the next couple of seasons (ideally with a tweak here or a big move there to maximize their shot to win). But beyond that, the decision point of tying ourselves down to DeRozan long term, with the limited potential for adding a better piece beside him, might define the next half decade or more of this team.

So if you are of the mindset that this window will close with Lowry's decline, then the team needs to plan for another road to success - because keeping it all together long term and having an aging Lowry be the 2nd best player to DeRozan is a choice that will lead to worse teams than we currently have. And once you decide that the team is going to move away from this core within the next two years - then it only makes sense to at least consider the return you could get for this core if you move away from them a little early.

That is a very rationally put position Dan. I wouldn't disagree with it. I DO disagree with anyone who takes the position "Burn it all down now. Deal the core for picks and trash an let's live at the bottom until we draft three future superstars."

I am willing to see what Masai can do. I am of the belief that he has at least as good a handle on the team and it's chances of success as any poster on this forum. If he hasn't traded everyone away yet, I believe it is for a reason, and I don't think the reason is Bell and Rogers want to cruise for cash.

[LJ2]

Playing devils advocate here, so a few thoughts on the rebuild vs. run it back debate:

The teams around us in the East are getting better. Boston has two all stars returning, Philly is brimming with potential, Pacers, and a bunch of teams which may have improved through the draft.

Not all 59 win teams are of the same quality. I'm not diminishing the accomplishment, but there were a few good teams and a lot of bad teams this past season. More and more teams are tanking in hopes of striking it big in the draft, and Raptors were in a good position to take advantage of that.

I'm not at all sure that the Raptors could have beaten Boston in the playoffs. I would be less certain this coming season if Hayward and Kyrie are back healthy.

New head coach, I'm not even sure if Nurse even has a full roster of assistants yet. Could be great, but it could be a recipe for disaster.

[Mack North]

It won't be a tank where we have a bunch of nobodies to ensure we get a top 2 or 3 pick though.

I hope we don't send the same team out there again next year, but it is what it is...

[KeonClark]

Tank is coming sooner or later. Lowry is aging and Derozan has obvious limitations and is not young either.

Nothing is definitive in sports. A few years ago the splash brothers plus bogut and David Lee were 2nd round fodder. I'll be interested to see how masai navigates this, I don't think he's interested in hinging his "winning culture" reputation on fringe all star Kyle Lowry

[slaw]

Tank is coming sooner or later. Lowry is aging and Derozan has obvious limitations and is not young either.

Every team has to rebuild eventually. This is like dating a smoking hot model/actress/waitress and thinking to yourself, 'well, sooner or later we'll break up, so may as do it now!", said no man ever.

I would totally understand these conversations if Toronto was Detroit or Charlotte or the Clips. But Toronto is a 59-win team. You don't rebuild a 59-win team, especially one that could be better if it's young players improve.

And again, I am still waiting for an answer to my question from anyone on the pro-tanking/must have a title/superstar side: at what point do you stop tanking if your ceiling isn't a title? 5 years? 10 years? 40 years? When do you stop tanking?

[MixxAOR]

Every team has to rebuild eventually. This is like dating a smoking hot model/actress/waitress and thinking to yourself, 'well, sooner or later we'll break up, so may as do it now!", said no man ever.

I would totally understand these conversations if Toronto was Detroit or Charlotte or the Clips. But Toronto is a 59-win team. You don't rebuild a 59-win team, especially one that could be better if it's young players improve.

And again, I am still waiting for an answer to my question from anyone on the pro-tanking/must have a title/superstar side: at what point do you stop tanking if your ceiling isn't a title? 5 years? 10 years? 40 years? When do you stop tanking?

This is a team that underperformed every year of the playoffs. This is a team that got swept and didnt put any fight against Conference Champion.

You guys are totally ok in believing that young guys we drafted in late 20s are going to make us into championship contender but if we draft in lottery we will end up with scrubs?

You tank until you gather enough young talent that you believe in. I believe in Masai when it comes to drafting. I don't think it'll take more than 5 years to find a real talent that you can build around. There wasn't a 3 year drought where Top 5 picks were all trash to my knowledge. 77% of first overall picks become All-Stars.

[MixxAOR]

Give Masai Top 5 picks 3 years in a row and just let magic happen. He's not drafting Bargnani I guarantee that.

[KeonClark]

Give Masai Top 5 picks 3 years in a row and just let magic happen. He's not drafting Bargnani I guarantee that.

If we're lucky he might draft the next Lowry derozan and valanciunas

[MixxAOR]

If we're lucky he might draft the next Lowry derozan and valanciunas

He won't draft undersized pg, SG who can't shoot and defensively challenged centre.

[Primer]

If DD and Lowry both missed the entire season with injuries I think we're still a playoff team in the East. You can't underestimate how shitty the East is right now.

If we want a lotto pick we need to deal someone for an unprotected future 1st and hope the team we traded with shits the bed that year. Basically what Boston did to Brooklyn.

[KeonClark]

He won't draft undersized pg, SG who can't shoot and defensively challenged centre.

Ah yes because well rounded college superstars grow on trees and no other team in front of you ever takes them first

[MixxAOR]

Ah yes because well rounded college superstars grow on trees and no other team in front of you ever takes them first

So it's better to celebrate how Lebron left the East and wonder what if Houston beat GSW? Come on man. I know full well that draft doesn't always work and you can get unlucky. But right now trying to build a championship contender with late first rounders, aging core and no cap room is kinda impossible.

[Primer]

So it's better to celebrate how Lebron left the East and wonder what if Houston beat GSW? Come on man. I know full well that draft doesn't always work and you can get unlucky. But right now trying to build a championship contender with late first rounders, aging core and no cap room is kinda impossible.

We're already a championship contender aren't we? We're one of the favorites to make the NBA Finals.