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**G__Deane** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 12:10 PM

All this renewed quitter-carter talk is making me nauseous....bring on the pre-season please!

**KeonClark** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 12:13 PM

TRex wrote: View Post

The fact that the 2001 Raptors team made it to the 2nd round really showed how great of a player Vince was. He carried that team SINGLEHANDEDLY.

He didn't have a DeRozan or a JV or bench that the Raptors had last year to play with. He mostly played with a bunch of scrubs.

Davis was a good player and he made the all star team that year as a replacement player but he was more of a rebounder and a defensive player. Oakley was past prime. JYD was nothing more than an energy guy. Curry was just a spot up shooter. And let's be honest Alvin Williams and MoPete are really backup players at best.

Again, replace Vince with Lowry. Would that team even make the playoffs? i highly doubt it.

The important thing is, replace Vince with Kawhi. We go to the finals in 2001

**The Great One** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 12:24 PM

The 2001 Raps team reminds me of the Cavs team last season minus Kevin Love. It was a one man show.

**KeonClark** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 12:32 PM

TRex wrote: View Post

The 2001 Raps team reminds me of the Cavs team last season minus Kevin Love. It was a one man show.

That's how teams were back then though. We lost to the Iverson show which went on to beat the ray Allen show. Shaq and Kobe smashed because nobody else had 2 top 10 players together.

Then the t mac show in Orlando.. everybody wanted their own team. Now starts all cluster to the same 4 or 5 teams

**S.R.** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:35 PM

Vince Carter was a much more popular Chris Bosh. That's about it.

**DanH** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:42 PM

Actually, the closest comparable I can come up with for Vince's peak years, based on win production, both in terms of box score stats and impact stats, is...

Kawhi Leonard.

Both were top 5 players for two seasons before getting hurt. Yes, Vince was legitimately that good (statistically, anyway). More than just half amazing, IMO. I remembered him being good but assumed some of that was nostalgia, with his actual production looking similar to DeMar's. Golly, my nostalgia was far more correct than my memory, once I looked into it. A superstar in every sense of the word.

Glad to finally have another.

**MixxAOR** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:43 PM

S.R. wrote: View Post

Vince Carter was a much more popular Chris Bosh. That's about it.

SG version of Blake Griffin to be honest

**LJ2** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:45 PM

DanH wrote: View Post

Actually, the closest comparable I can come up with for Vince's peak years, based on win production, both in terms of box score stats and impact stats, is...

Kawhi Leonard.

Both were top 5 players for two seasons before getting hurt. Yes, Vince was legitimately that good (statistically, anyway). More than just half amazing, IMO. I remembered him being good but assumed some of that was nostalgia, with his actual production looking similar to DeMar's. Golly, my nostalgia was far more correct than my memory, once I looked into it. A superstar in every sense of the word.

Glad to finally have another.

Thank-you. I was starting to think I've lost my mind with what I'm reading on this thread.

**KeonClark** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:47 PM

DanH wrote: View Post

Actually, the closest comparable I can come up with for Vince's peak years, based on win production, both in terms of box score stats and impact stats, is...

Kawhi Leonard.

Both were top 5 players for two seasons before getting hurt. Yes, Vince was legitimately that good (statistically, anyway). More than just half amazing, IMO. I remembered him being good but assumed some of that was nostalgia, with his actual production looking similar to DeMar's. Golly, my nostalgia was far more correct than my memory, once I looked into it. A superstar in every sense of the word.

Glad to finally have another.

Really dan? Are you factoring that Kawhi is arguably the best perimeter defender of all time? What year was Vince Carter a top 5 player?

**DanH** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 01:55 PM

KeonClark wrote: View Post

Really dan? Are you factoring that Kawhi is arguably the best perimeter defender of all time? What year was Vince Carter a top 5 player?

Yes, impact stats are by definition an attempt to factor in things like being arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

Vince was borderline top 5 (both WS and VORP have him 7th) in 99-00 and top 5 (WS has him 6th, and VORP 2nd) in 00-01.

Vince was definitely more an offensive talent rather than defensive like Kawhi, but he really was that good.

**KeonClark** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 02:05 PM

DanH wrote: View Post

Yes, impact stats are by definition an attempt to factor in things like being arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

Vince was borderline top 5 (both WS and VORP have him 7th) in 99-00 and top 5 (WS has him 6th, and VORP 2nd) in 00-01.

Vince was definitely more an offensive talent rather than defensive like Kawhi, but he really was that good.

I mean if we're just going off win share then ray Allen was the leagues 2nd best player and better than tim Duncan in 2000. If we're trusting Vorp than Russell Westbrook has had the best season..of all time.

It seems the flaw in those stats is they punish players with more support around them and award those with really high usage

**golden** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 02:09 PM

DanH wrote: View Post

Yes, impact stats are by definition an attempt to factor in things like being arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

Vince was borderline top 5 (both WS and VORP have him 7th) in 99-00 and top 5 (WS has him 6th, and VORP 2nd) in 00-01.

Vince was definitely more an offensive talent rather than defensive like Kawhi, but he really was that good.

Peak VC: 114 ORTG on 30.7% USG.
Peak Kawhi: 121 ORTG on 31.1% USG.

Kawhi > VC

Honestly, I love VC and got seasons tickets because of him and him alone. He was a great offensive talent, but he could be inefficient as witnessed by his TS% being under 55% for most of his Toronto tenure. Also, his handles were a bit loose. Vince is at or near the very top of the second tier NBA superstars and above Bosh, Lowry and Derozan, but in the same category. Kawhi is at another level altogether, especially when you factor in winning.

**DanH** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 02:15 PM

golden wrote: View Post

Peak VC: 114 ORTG on 30.7% USG.
Peak Kawhi: 121 ORTG on 31.1% USG.

Kawhi > VC

Honestly, I love VC and got seasons tickets because of him and him alone. He was a great offensive talent, but he could be inefficient as witnessed by his TS% being under 55% for most of his Toronto tenure. Also, his handles were a bit loose. Vince is at or near the very top of the second tier NBA superstars and above Bosh, Lowry and Derozan, but in the same category. Kawhi is at another level altogether, especially when you factor in winning.

Meh, ignoring the league around them is silly. Many of the top players now are more efficient than the top players back then.

Heck, I think Kawhi is better than Vince. But a lot of players now are better than their equivalent players from decades ago. The league is better now. When you refer to superstars, you are talking about players with respect to the league at the time. Vince graded out amazingly well in his too short prime.

**DanH** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 02:17 PM

KeonClark wrote: View Post

I mean if we're just going off win share then ray Allen was the leagues 2nd best player and better than tim Duncan in 2000. If we're trusting Vorp than Russell Westbrook has had the best season..of all time.

It seems the flaw in those stats is they punish players with more support around them and award those with really high usage

If there were more reliable stats to go off, I'd use them.

You can quibble with the specific rankings among the elite players each season, but it's very hard to see a way to where Vince wasn't in that top 5 convo.

**KeonClark** · Mon Sep 17, 2018, 02:17 PM

To me yes you could say Vince was better than Lowry or DeMar. But in tier 2 like say a giannis or a Westbrook

Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, Duncan = those guys were the top tier like James, Leonard, Durant, curry today

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