Everything Kawhi Leonard

[LJ2]

VC was pretty damn good in his prime. I would put him in the same tier as KG in his prime. Both were superstars imo though VC for a much shorter time.

[KeonClark]

I was one of the few who kept rooting for Vince when he left. I thought him kidd and Jefferson could have been special. He just didn't have that extra gear that Kobe or mike had.

Even now you see how the twilight of his career is spent picking teams that have zero pressure to win, warm climates and hes done playing in April so he can golf

Vince LOVES the game. I dont know how much he loves the competition, or ever cared about being the best.

[JimiCliff]

Vince has had a super weird career. He might have peaked in his third year in the league. He needed Oakley's constantly threatening presence nearby to get the most out of his potential.

[KeonClark]

Vince has had a super weird career. He might have peaked in his third year in the league. He needed Oakley's constantly threatening presence nearby to get the most out of his potential.

Super weird indeed. If you asked asked me in 2003 when Vince would retire I would have said 33 or 34 years old. He was injury prone and aloof. Last guy I expected to have extreme longevity and morph into a grey beard who does all the little things

[LJ2]

Completely agree that with VC, it was a matter of character and how much he applied himself. Talent wise he was on par with Kobe, but never dedicated himself the same way.

Part of the reason I kept wondering why people wanted him back here a couple seasons ago. That is not the guy I would want mentoring the young players in the locker room.

[golden]

Meh, ignoring the league around them is silly. Many of the top players now are more efficient than the top players back then.

Heck, I think Kawhi is better than Vince. But a lot of players now are better than their equivalent players from decades ago. The league is better now. When you refer to superstars, you are talking about players with respect to the league at the time. Vince graded out amazingly well in his too short prime.

Even so, Prime VC only made only 2 all-NBA teams (2nd & 3rd), so you can make a good argument for top 10, but top 5 really pushing it, especially factoring in defense. Jason Kidd was All-NBA 1st team because of total impact (offense & defense), even though he wasn't much of a scorer.

[DanH]

Even so, Prime VC only made only 2 all-NBA teams (2nd & 3rd), so you can make a good argument for top 10, but top 5 really pushing it, especially factoring in defense. Jason Kidd was All-NBA 1st team because of total impact (offense & defense), even though he wasn't much of a scorer.

Meh, DeMar made all-NBA 2nd and no one thinks (or should, anyway) that he's top 10.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Vince is STILL the greatest player in franchise history. Nothing really has changed. He was a TRUE franchise player unlike Lowry and DeRozan.

Yes, DeRozan has more points than Vince. But that's mostly because he played here A LOT longer than Vince lol.

Kawhi has a chance to surpass Vince as the GROAT -- IF he re-signs.

"True franchise player" based on fucking what?

He didn't do anything in the playoffs. He never even led us to 50 wins in an EXTREMELY weak eastern conference.

[The Great One]

"True franchise player" based on fucking what?

He didn't do anything in the playoffs. He never even led us to 50 wins in an EXTREMELY weak eastern conference.

First of all, why are you always so angry? lol

Second, he didn't do anything in the playoffs?

Third, he never led us to a 50 win season because he was you know....the ONLY good player on the team.

[KeonClark]

First of all, why are you always so angry? lol

[Shaolin Fantastic]

First of all, why are you always so angry? lol

Second, he didn't do anything in the playoffs?

Third, he never led us to a 50 win season because he was you know....the ONLY good player on the team.

I'm angry because I'm a bad and dangerous person.

Moving on.

Congrats he had a duel with AI (who is also overrated btw) that he lost... in the 2nd round. That isn't dominating in the playoffs.

[KeonClark]

I'm angry because I'm a bad and dangerous person.

Bad and dangerous are the 2 best Michael Jackson albums

Yes Joey it's still the offseason

[The Great One]

[Joey]

Bad and dangerous are the 2 best Michael Jackson albums

Yes Joey it's still the offseason

[golden]

Meh, DeMar made all-NBA 2nd and no one thinks (or should, anyway) that he's top 10.

Exactly my point, even more so.