Everything Kawhi Leonard

[S.R.]

No one is claiming Vince was a top 5 player with the Nets. He was never the same after his injuries.

You remember it differently than me so I did some quick math. Lets take his best 3 season stretch for both teams and take the averages. These numbers were rounded

2000-02 Raptors
26.33 pts, 5.5 rebounds, 4 ast
53.33%ts, 10.67 win share, 5.33 vorp 23 PER

2005-2007 nets
25.67 pts 5.9 rebounds 4.5 assist
53%ts, 9.67 win share, 5 vorp 23 PER

It's an exaggeration to say he wasn't the same player. The decline started in 2008 at age 31, after 3 seasons with the nets and 3 all star games while collecting 3 player of the months. Didnt get past the 2nd round with Jason Kidd.

His best playoff performances were also in New Jersey - both by raw box score and by WS & VORP. And they still couldn't get anything done in a weak conference.

You can slice and dice Vince's legacy any number of ways, there's plenty to show he was an excellent player - because he was really good. In the end I think he was a bit of an anti-Lowry - no matter his situation, he just never really drove wins. Nearly everyone got that sense after watching him for enough years.

Trying to keep this thread on track a bit, given a choice between prime Kawhi and prime Vince, I'd take Kawhi without hesitation.

[LJ2]

Those questions are way too insightful for Rod Black. He's way more incoherent than that.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Yeah, his interview questions go more like, "Kawhi, what do you know about Canada", "Kawhi, have you ever seen snow", "Kawhi, on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad do you want to strangle me right now"?

[The Great One]

1. What do you know about Canada?
2. What is the capital of Canada?
3. Favourite Restaurant in Toronto?
4. What do you think of the weather? do you like snow?

I'm sure we'll hear all these DUMB questions from all these Toronto reporters ALL YEAR.

[ReubenJRD]

1. What do you know about Canada?
2. What is the capital of Canada?
3. Favourite Restaurant in Toronto?
4. What do you think of the weather? do you like snow?

I'm sure we'll hear all these DUMB questions from all these Toronto reporters ALL YEAR.

Sounds like a job for.... Cabbie!

[KeonClark]

His best playoff performances were also in New Jersey - both by raw box score and by WS & VORP. And they still couldn't get anything done in a weak conference.

You can slice and dice Vince's legacy any number of ways, there's plenty to show he was an excellent player - because he was really good. In the end I think he was a bit of an anti-Lowry - no matter his situation, he just never really drove wins. Nearly everyone got that sense after watching him for enough years.

Trying to keep this thread on track a bit, given a choice between prime Kawhi and prime Vince, I'd take Kawhi without hesitation.

Yeah we're really just disputing semantics. Vince was great and until Kawhi steps on the floor hes the best player in their prime we've ever had (sorry Hakeem oldmanjuwan)

All I'm saying is Vince was never an alpha 1 where as soon as you acquire him your total franchise shifts. Lebron, Durant and Kawhi are those types of guys. Shaq, Kobe and Duncan were those types of guys. That's a superstar, that's a "top 5" guy.

And Vince was the reason I fell in love with basketball. I always hoped be the next Michael Jordan if I'm being honest. I kept reminding myself "MJ didnt win title until he was 27" and was really excited for Vince to join jason kidd and make it happen

[LJ2]

Sounds like a job for.... Cabbie!

Or Tim or Sid. Just about anyone would have more personality that RB.

[KeonClark]

Sounds like a job for.... Cabbie!

Dont let cabbie near Kawhi hes way too handsy with his subjects and just invades their personal bubble lol

[SkywalkerAC]

No one is claiming Vince was a top 5 player with the Nets. He was never the same after his injuries.

I'm not aware of anything that debilitating when he was playing with the Nets. Didn't he just have minor stuff like 'jumper's knee' and ankle sprains with us? He should have still been in his prime, no?

I think some of the blame for his short-lived prime falls on opposing teams figuring him out to some degree - loading up on him and taking away the drive. He probably would have fared better in this era with a little less physical defense and more spacing around him.

[Yuri Gagarin]

theres success in numbers but sometimes i think world popularity is a good indicator. They knew MJ in mozambique and burma i dont think bron has gotten there. Same with vince he was known across oceans I love DD but he wont attain that far reaching success

[The Great One]

Dont let cabbie near Kawhi hes way too handsy with his subjects and just invades their personal bubble lol

Cabbie is so corny nowadays. Used to like him when he was on theScore.

[DanH]

You remember it differently than me so I did some quick math. Lets take his best 3 season stretch for both teams and take the averages. These numbers were rounded

2000-02 Raptors
26.33 pts, 5.5 rebounds, 4 ast
53.33%ts, 10.67 win share, 5.33 vorp 23 PER

2005-2007 nets
25.67 pts 5.9 rebounds 4.5 assist
53%ts, 9.67 win share, 5 vorp 23 PER

It's an exaggeration to say he wasn't the same player. The decline started in 2008 at age 31, after 3 seasons with the nets and 3 all star games while collecting 3 player of the months. Didnt get past the 2nd round with Jason Kidd.

Yeah, so you are including too many seasons in Toronto. He had a rapid rise to superstardom and then a dramatic fall off as the injuries piled up.

Try again with his best two-year stretches in each location:

1999-01 Raptors
26.6 pts, 5.7 rebounds, 3.9 ast
54.7%ts, 24.7 win share, 11.9 vorp 24.2 PER

2005-2007 nets
24.7 pts 5.9 rebounds 4.5 assist
54.8%ts, 19.7 win share, 9.5 vorp 21.7 PER

Those are very good numbers. He was a very good player in NJ. He was not a borderline top 5 player in NJ like he was in TOR (and even the two-year data kind of waters down the argument, as he took a real leap from 99-00 to 00-01). He ranked 7th and 7th in WS and VORP in 99-00, and 6th and 2nd in 00-01. He ranked 25th and 16th in 05-06, 15th and 14th in 06-07.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

The idea that Vince was a top 5 player at any point in his career is hilarious lmao.

[KeonClark]

Yeah, so you are including too many seasons in Toronto. He had a rapid rise to superstardom and then a dramatic fall off as the injuries piled up.

Try again with his best two-year stretches in each location:

1999-01 Raptors
26.6 pts, 5.7 rebounds, 3.9 ast
54.7%ts, 24.7 win share, 11.9 vorp 24.2 PER

2005-2007 nets
24.7 pts 5.9 rebounds 4.5 assist
54.8%ts, 19.7 win share, 9.5 vorp 21.7 PER

Those are very good numbers. He was a very good player in NJ. He was not a borderline top 5 player in NJ like he was in TOR (and even the two-year data kind of waters down the argument, as he took a real leap from 99-00 to 00-01). He ranked 7th and 7th in WS and VORP in 99-00, and 6th and 2nd in 00-01. He ranked 25th and 16th in 05-06, 15th and 14th in 06-07.

So he was a borderline top 5 player for one year in Toronto. You take his next best 5 seasons after 2001, and 3 of them are spent in New Jersey.

We can split hairs all we want but Vince Carter was "vincanity" from age 23 to age 30. Injuries would happen in a single season like 2003 or motivation issues maybe plagued his last couple years in Toronto, but he was a much better player his first 3 years in Jersey than his last 3 in Toronto. He did not go to New Jersey a broken player on the decline.

[Yuri Gagarin]

His injuries were minor his main ailment was babcockitis

[DanH]

So he was a borderline top 5 player for one year in Toronto. You take his next best 5 seasons after 2001, and 3 of them are spent in New Jersey.

We can split hairs all we want but Vince Carter was "vincanity" from age 23 to age 30. Injuries would happen in a single season like 2003 or motivation issues maybe plagued his last couple years in Toronto, but he was a much better player his first 3 years in Jersey than his last 3 in Toronto. He did not go to New Jersey a broken player on the decline.

Did I say he went to Jersey a broken player on the decline? I did not. I said he was not the same player he was when he was exploding the league early in his career in Toronto before the injuries. And he was not.

He was solidly a top 5 player for one season, a borderline top 5 player for the other in his Toronto peak. Was never close in Jersey. Not sure why that is controversial. All I've said is that statistically that's where he ranked in those years, he compares very closely to Kawhi narratively and in terms of their place in the league at their peaks (so far), and we shouldn't hand wave Vince's best years as "star but not superstar." He was really, truly elite before it all went bad. No reason to pretend otherwise.

Yes, he was inefficient (by today's standards). Welcome to the 90s and early 00s! Look at the TS% of the top players in the league at the time. Payton 53%, Garnett 54%, Shaq 58%, Malone 57%, Duncan 55%, Webber 53%... The league wide offensive rating was 4.5 points lower in 2000 than in 2018. Heck, part of why he wasn't as elite a half decade later with the Nets was he was still putting up his late-90's numbers, while everyone around him was scoring more efficiently (with ORTG having jumped by 2 points already), even setting aside his lost explosiveness from his absolute peak.