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  • Barolt wrote: View Post
    No, they wouldn't excel. LeBron is at his best with 4 shooters around him, this has been true his entire career. DeMar isn't a shooter.

    You really want to take the ball out of LeBron's hands so DeMar can iso?
    Sure frame the argument as LeBron vs DeMar...

    Sure, on a given possession LeBron with shooters is deadly, but you are ignoring everytime LeBron kicks it out, is on the bench, or just not bring the ball up the Cavs have no good creators. Its not like Kyrie was there to stand in the corner and shoot threes.

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    • Barolt wrote: View Post
      Do you seriously believe this part? That DeMar is on the same level as Heat Wade?
      Where exactly are you going with this? The original point was Demar co-existing as a secondary ball-handler and 2nd or 3rd option, even though he's not a 3-pt shooter. That should work out fine for the team receiving Demar (e.g. Cavs or Wolves) as long as they are willing to pay top dollar for a 2nd/3rd option. In the case of Minnesota, they're actually in a worse situation, salary-wise, with Wiggins.

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      • This idea that you can only have one guy on your team who's better with the ball in his hands is just silly.

        Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. Which one of those three was an off-ball player?

        Guys like Barolt are so confused about what the actual problem is. The problem isn't that DeMar isn't a 3+D player. Just replacing him with a 3+D guy isn't going to make the team better (could actually easily make the team worse). The problem with DeMar is that he's the #1 option on the team. He's not good enough to be that player for a championship level team.

        But if you mean to tell me he can't be an elite 2nd or 3rd option you're kidding yourself. There have been guys who are even more limited than him in terms of defense and certain attributes who have filled in that role just fine for championship caliber teams, even with high usage guys as the #1 or even #1 and #2 options.

        Stop acting like he's just some player you can't win with at all at the highest level. They don't pick him for Team USA (where he isn't a primary option at all) because they're stupid.
        Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Mon May 21, 2018, 09:00 PM.

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          This idea that you can only have one guy on your team who's better with the ball in his hands is just silly.

          Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. Which one of those three was an off-ball player?

          Guys like Barolt are so confused about what the actual problem is. The problem isn't that DeMar isn't a 3+D player. Just replacing him with a 3+D guy isn't going to make the team better (could actually easily make the team worse). The problem with DeMar is that he's the #1 option on the team. He's not good enough to be that player for a championship level team.

          But if you mean to tell me he can't be an elite 2nd or 3rd option you're kidding yourself. There have been guys who are even more limited than him in terms of defense and certain attributes who have filled in that role just fine for championship caliber teams, even with high usage guys as the #1 or even #1 and #2 options.

          Stop acting like he's just some player you can't win with at all at the highest level. They don't pick him for Team USA (where he isn't a primary option at all) because they're stupid.
          Ginobili is a 37% career three-point shooter on almost 4 attempts a game, though?

          You want guys who don't have the ball to provide value without the ball. DeMar doesn't. It's really not that complicated. Cleveland completely ignored him when he didn't have the ball, and it worked fantastically for them.
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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          • Barolt wrote: View Post
            Ginobili is a 37% career three-point shooter on almost 4 attempts a game, though?

            You want guys who don't have the ball to provide value without the ball. DeMar doesn't. It's really not that complicated. Cleveland completely ignored him when he didn't have the ball, and it worked fantastically for them.
            I don't care what his three point percentage was. Ginobili was not an off-ball player. He was a primary/secondary ball-handler and slasher first and foremost. He also was a pretty mediocre defensive player.

            Your idea is essentially that a wing either needs to be a superstar or a high-level 3+D player to contribute at a high level to a championship team, and that is just fundamentally wrong and there are countless examples to show as much.

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            • Keep an eye on Dallas, I like what Simmons said about them on his podcast.

              They could send us Matthews, Powell and #5 for DeMar then try to sign Randle and Cousins.

              DSJ-DeRozan-Barnes-Randle-Cousins.

              Not nearly enough shooting but if they want to be good next year they could. Also that's probably the most athletic team in the league
              Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Tue May 22, 2018, 10:19 AM.

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              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                Keep an eye on Dallas, I like what Simmons said about them on his podcast.

                They could send us Matthews, Powell and #5 for DeMar then try to sign Randle and Cousins.

                DSJ-DeRozan-Barnes-Randle-Cousins.

                Not nearly enough shooting but if they want to be good next year they could. Also that's probably the most athletic team in the league
                fingers crossed
                Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                  Keep an eye on Dallas, I like what Simmons said about them on his podcast.

                  They could send us Matthews, Powell and #5 for DeMar then try to sign Randle and Cousins.

                  DSJ-DeRozan-Barnes-Randle-Cousins.

                  Not nearly enough shooting but if they want to be good next year they could. Also that's probably the most athletic team in the league
                  That's a decent deal there for us. Cuban is the type of guy who would want to take shortcuts to become competitive again.
                  your pal,
                  ebrian

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                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    Keep an eye on Dallas, I like what Simmons said about them on his podcast.

                    They could send us Matthews, Powell and #5 for DeMar then try to sign Randle and Cousins.

                    DSJ-DeRozan-Barnes-Randle-Cousins.

                    Not nearly enough shooting but if they want to be good next year they could. Also that's probably the most athletic team in the league
                    My thought was to dump salary in that deal, but leaving them their cap space could help grease the wheels on such a trade...

                    Powell is really, really good, and I'd be really happy to have him. But if they want to win, are they trading him?

                    Also, if Powell is here he's definitely starting at PF, meaning they probably try to find a bad contract to swap Serge for. Maybe that NYK idea becomes a reality in that case...

                    But I have my doubts Dallas would want to move Powell. Otherwise love the deal and the other doors it may open. Raptors could potentially be just as good next year after trading DeMar and getting that sort of return, plus would have a top pick (and maybe another decent pick if they leverage Ibaka correctly) without having to get bad right away, and maintain the flexibility to get bad the following year if need be, and with continued success this year could sell a shorter rebuild more easily to the fan base and ownership.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • ebrian wrote: View Post
                      That's a decent deal there for us. Cuban is the type of guy who would want to take shortcuts to become competitive again.
                      Exactly. That's why this seems like a great year to get a lot of value for DeMar because you have two teams who are probably anxious to get back in the playoffs in Memphis and Dallas with top 5 picks.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        My thought was to dump salary in that deal, but leaving them their cap space could help grease the wheels on such a trade...

                        Powell is really, really good, and I'd be really happy to have him. But if they want to win, are they trading him?

                        Also, if Powell is here he's definitely starting at PF, meaning they probably try to find a bad contract to swap Serge for. Maybe that NYK idea becomes a reality in that case...

                        But I have my doubts Dallas would want to move Powell. Otherwise love the deal and the other doors it may open. Raptors could potentially be just as good next year after trading DeMar and getting that sort of return, plus would have a top pick (and maybe another decent pick if they leverage Ibaka correctly) without having to get bad right away, and maintain the flexibility to get bad the following year if need be, and with continued success this year could sell a shorter rebuild more easily to the fan base and ownership.
                        I had Powell in there in case they wanted to leave the possibility of signing Randle (Dallas-native, RFA) and one of either DeAndre (also from Dallas, and they almost signed him before)/Cousins. In that case they'd have Randle and Dirk so Powell would be kind of redundant for them at the 4 spot anyway.

                        And I agree that unlike the Memphis trade (in which case I think with Parsons lack of contribution and albatross contract you have to look to try and tank, since the team will get much worse), the team likely doesn't drop off too much with this deal. So you could go the route of trying to compete in 2018-19 with a new coach and a Lowry-Matthews-OG-Powell-JV starting lineup and our bench unit plus whoever we get in the draft. Still don't think we get any further but it's definitely an option.
                        Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Tue May 22, 2018, 11:31 AM.

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                        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                          I had Powell in there in case they wanted to leave the possibility of signing Randle (Dallas-native, RFA) and one of either DeAndre (also from Dallas, and they almost signed him before)/Cousins. In that case they'd have Randle and Dirk so Powell would be kind of redundant for them at the 4 spot anyway.
                          True, he's just really freaking good.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • Again, any massive trade of derozan for a pick will have a ripple effect. Lowry will want out, and it will be not easy to do so.
                            9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                              Again, any massive trade of derozan for a pick will have a ripple effect. Lowry will want out, and it will be not easy to do so.
                              My preference is to go that route anyway (trading Ibaka and Lowry as well). I think honestly if Philly gets one of the three elite wings this summer (Kawhi via trade, George, LBJ) they will want him. Fultz isn't good enough yet and can't shoot and RoCo would no longer really be a necessity. I think we could get both of them for Kyle, especially considering the impatience BC has shown in the past with "accelerated rebuilds" (granted it would be warranted in this case if they got LeBron).

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                              • I like this DeMar idea, and if Dallas is dumb enough to do it (they may well be, not clear how much they value Powell), I wonder how to structure a Knicks deal to shed some salary and take on an asset.

                                Perhaps the Knicks would bite on some useful players right now to get better immediately around Porzingis.

                                Serge and CJ Miles for Noah and Lance Thomas and Chicago's 2nd round pick and Charlotte's 2020 2nd round pick. I might be tempted to ask for their 9th pick this year instead but that would be a reeeeeeal long shot - maybe a 2019 1st with protections?

                                Raptors save 3 million or so right up front. Thomas has non-guaranteed salary in 19-20, so he's basically an expiring this summer. Raps could stretch his 7M over three years to cut a few more million and barely impact their cap in 2020.

                                So, Raps save long term money, short term money, and get extra assets, while losing contributors at positions they are overloaded in (Powell and Siakam would take the PF minutes full time, Matthews and other Powell the SG and backup wing positions). Knicks convert their two non-entities into functional NBA players.

                                That all depends on the Dallas trade though. Moving Ibaka next year probably brings a little more back if you are taking dead salary, but with Powell and Siakam on the team it's better to just get him off the roster immediately. Without Powell, I wait on an Ibaka deal.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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