Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

Feel free to start a thread about the validity of stats. Not only this one but a lot of the others as well.

Might make for a good read for those of us who take advanced stats with a grain of salt.

I still believe that you shouldn't NEED advanced stats to see the better players on the floor, night in and night out.




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When posters like yourself cannot see with their own eyes the overinflatedness of their love affair with demar then advanced stats are there to guide. To try and show them the folly of their ways

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[Snooch]

Ross isn't shooting 55+ TS% and has only done so once (55.3 TS% in 2013-14). He's at 52.2% this year and 51.9% last year which is really bad for a guy who primarily just takes spot up threes.

We can talk about "DeMar without FTAs" all we want but that doesn't exist lol. He's 2nd in the NBA in makes over the past 3 seasons.

Go9d thing

Think he will still be getting to the line at that rate in the playoff?

Or next year?

Or if h8s usage is that if a third teir player?


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[Snooch]

Umm I just want to point out that 41% is actually not a bad percentage on those type of shots.

Not saying he should be taking them (needs to be driving more), but 41% on pull-up jumpers isn't a low percentage.

41% is not good. Period. Give it a rest.

Unless he is shooting from outside of three point line 41% is a shit shot

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[Barolt]

Feel free to start a thread about the validity of stats. Not only this one but a lot of the others as well.

Might make for a good read for those of us who take advanced stats with a grain of salt.

I still believe that you shouldn't NEED advanced stats to see the better players on the floor, night in and night out.




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This same argument about the eye test being better than stats was used to defend Bargnani and Gay when they were here.

There are some advanced stats that work really well for DeMar and some that don't. The sum of these leads to an understanding of what his game is, and what it likely should be. He's shown some growth this year in moving towards the latter, but there's still a lot of work left to do for him to become the most efficient version of himself.

There's a whole different conversation about whether even that most efficient version of DeMar is the right guy to build a team around, and that's the camp I find myself in. He's fun to watch when he's efficient. But I'm not sure a guard who can't shoot the three is the right player to build a championship team around in this day and age.

[DanH]

Umm I just want to point out that 41% is actually not a bad percentage on those type of shots.

Not saying he should be taking them (needs to be driving more), but 41% on pull-up jumpers isn't a low percentage.

Nor is shooting 27% on full court heaves a bad percentage on that type of shot, but I would say a player taking 6.5 of those a game would be a bad idea. And would be notorious for missing a bunch of those shots.

In any case, shooting a relatively decent percentage for a shot where the percentages are bad does not make it a good percentage.

[Eliza]

Welcome.

We need more Raptors fans here.

Thank you :-). Not sure how much I'd care to hang around though. I appreciate balanced views of team/players, but it seems the people who treat others like blind homers are just blind downers themselves. It's a choice I can't understand with the All-Star worthy year DeMar is having.

[special1]

This same argument about the eye test being better than stats was used to defend Bargnani and Gay when they were here.

There are some advanced stats that work really well for DeMar and some that don't. The sum of these leads to an understanding of what his game is, and what it likely should be. He's shown some growth this year in moving towards the latter, but there's still a lot of work left to do for him to become the most efficient version of himself.

There's a whole different conversation about whether even that most efficient version of DeMar is the right guy to build a team around, and that's the camp I find myself in. He's fun to watch when he's efficient. But I'm not sure a guard who can't shoot the three is the right player to build a championship team around in this day and age.

I'm not sure you have any idea what the "right guy" for a championship team looks like.

Thanks for sharing your opinion though.

Your boy Ross started in 2 playoff series and was absolutely useless in BOTH. However, you continue to spout how he never gets a chance. That's very interesting.

The truth is that some posters have already made up their minds on Demar, regardless on how he performs this year. You can tell in their posts. Not very happy when he performs great in a win. Posting how they think he will revert to "bad Demar." How he only got 13 FTA.... Sorry, only 6 in a couple quarters.

Demar can win player of the week, player of the month, become an all-star (again), and wouldn't have any part in your "championship team".... But I bet Ross would be on it...lmao.

It's all jokes and the fun part about this forum.

People talk like they know so much, but we're all the same. We all sit on our couches pretending to know what a championship team looks like...well, some of us.




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[Barolt]

I'm not sure you have any idea what the "right guy" for a championship team looks like.

Thanks for sharing your opinion though.

Your boy Ross started in 2 playoff series and was absolutely useless in BOTH. However, you continue to spout how he never gets a chance. That's very interesting.

The truth is that some posters have already made up their minds on Demar, regardless on how he performs this year. You can tell in their posts. Not very happy when he performs great in a win. Posting how they think he will revert to "bad Demar." How he only got 13 FTA.... Sorry, only 6 in a couple quarters.

Demar can win player of the week, player of the month, become an all-star (again), and wouldn't have any part in your "championship team".... But I bet Ross would be on it...lmao.

It's all jokes and the fun part about this forum.

People talk like they know so much, but we're all the same. We all sit on our couches pretending to know what a championship team looks like...well, some of us.




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Ross' only chance to be a contributor to a champion, in my opinion, is a 3 and D guy off the bench if he gets more consistent.

That's fine. He can do that role. You somehow read a post where I said that DeMar has stats that look really good, where I said he's becoming more efficient, and where I said that I enjoy watching him when he's efficient, and you only took negatives from it. I said more good things than bad things about him there.

[golden]

Once again:

> 25% USG. Check.
> 110 ORTG. Check.
> 30MPG. Check

Barely elite. But still....



http://bkref.com/tiny/ToYAz

I think we need to give the anti-DD rhetoric a break, unless he dips below those criteria. He is CLEARLY playing at a high level offensively. As long as he hits those targets, trying to poke holes in his game offensively will look foolish and nit-picky. I've been following those stats for years and they never fail the smell test.

[Barolt]

Once again:

> 25% USG. Check.
> 110 ORTG. Check.
> 30MPG. Check

Barely elite. But still....



http://bkref.com/tiny/ToYAz

I think we need to give the anti-DD rhetoric a break, unless he dips below those criteria. He is CLEARLY playing at a high level offensively. As long as he hits those targets, trying to poke holes in his game offensively will look foolish and nit-picky. I've been following those stats for years and they never fail the smell test.

I'm unsure of the significance of those exact bench marks, also, WS/48 is a better stat generally speaking than WS.

Kevin Love has an Ortg of 112, but is somehow disqualified because his usage rate is only 24.2%? He's got a higher PER, TS%, BPM, VORP than DeMar, but that .8% usage disqualifies him?

I'm really curious, I just don't understand how those 25% usage, 110 ORtg and 30MPG numbers aren't just arbitrary milestones.

[hotfuzz]

Like i always say n this thread. Haters gonna hate. This thread is hilarious right now. The usual suspects in complete troll mode. But i'm not surprised. Not at all lol.

I'm unsure of the significance of those exact bench marks, also, WS/48 is a better stat generally speaking than WS.

Kevin Love has an Ortg of 112, but is somehow disqualified because his usage rate is only 24.2%? He's got a higher PER, TS%, BPM, VORP than DeMar, but that .8% usage disqualifies him?

I'm really curious, I just don't understand how those 25% usage, 110 ORtg and 30MPG numbers aren't just arbitrary milestones.

Yea, but if you're going to compare players using stats, you have to draw the line somewhere? And wherever you do draw the line, it'll be arbitrary. No ways around it.

[Barolt]

Yea, but if you're going to compare players using stats, you have to draw the line somewhere? And wherever you do draw the line, it'll be arbitrary. No ways around it.

So Tony Parker, who has a WS/48 of .228, Ortg of 118 and Drtg of 98, TS% of .606 isn't elite because he only has 21% USG? Seriously?

[golden]

I'm unsure of the significance of those exact bench marks, also, WS/48 is a better stat generally speaking than WS.

Kevin Love has an Ortg of 112, but is somehow disqualified because his usage rate is only 24.2%? He's got a higher PER, TS%, BPM, VORP than DeMar, but that .8% usage disqualifies him?

I'm really curious, I just don't understand how those 25% usage, 110 ORtg and 30MPG numbers aren't just arbitrary milestones.

Love has a case for being an all-star, for sure. Especially since he gets rebounds, which really boosts PER (although, most people would say that he kills your team on defense). But, if Love's an all-star, then Demar certainly is. Which is kind of why I landed on the 25/110 criteria: you can't question anybody on that list. If anything, I would bump up the USG target to 27 - which would exclude Kawhi, and clearly leave out Love.

The key here is USG. The higher the usage, the more difficult it is to maintain the 110 ORTG. Maintaining a high efficiency (ORTG) is an indication of how developed your offensive game is when the opposition knows you're getting the ball and they're game-planning for you. Only elite scorers can continue to score efficiently at high USG. It's based on the Dean Oliver (godfather of bball analytics) work, which is the foundation of most of the basketball-reference.com advanced stats. Most players have an ORTG ceiling at a certain USG, and then their ORTGs plummet badly. The average player is 20% USG & 105 ORTG, by definition. If you drop below 105 ORTG, you're actually scoring at a clip below average and hurting your team. DD was doing that last season, but not this season.

Now of course, this is only looking at offense. Paul George is an even better example of somebody who gets screwed by my arbitrary criteria, so I guess is doesn't completely pass the sniff test. He's at 32/109 with DPOY level defense. So you can play around a bit with the USG (from 20 upwards) and ORTG (from 105 upwards). Demar is going be on that list of top 20 scorers.

[Mindlessness]

So Tony Parker, who has a WS/48 of .228, Ortg of 118 and Drtg of 98, TS% of .606 isn't elite because he only has 21% USG? Seriously?

I think Golden's argument here would be that Parker isn't carrying elite usage relative to DeMar or Thomas. I'm inclined to agree.

Love is close enough though that he's questionable. I also don't see your point here, that it's arbitrary? Even if Parker and Love are part of that "elite" list, I don't think it would really lower DeMar's achievements this season.

[JWash]

I think Golden's argument here would be that Parker isn't carrying elite usage relative to DeMar or Thomas. I'm inclined to agree.

Love is close enough though that he's questionable. I also don't see your point here, that it's arbitrary? Even if Parker and Love are part of that "elite" list, I don't think it would really lower DeMar's achievements this season.

Lol exactly. We're talking about a former finals MVP with 4 rings and a 3 time all-star who put up 25-15 games in his sleep when he was the main man. Not the worst company.