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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Yeah, that's what I did, I dropped several percentage points back of his actual production, or the lists would be empty.

    I tried to do that. So you give me what you consider to be comparable, and I'll find it.
    Remember I was only talking about offense so someone like Cody Zeller can give you an efficient 10-15ppg on the number of shots that JV gets. Basically just talking about a PF who can give us about that many points efficiently. Again that's not super rare. It is if you set the bar at 60 TS% but if you say just efficient (i.e. above average 55+TS%) and that level of scoring a lot more names come up. I've put it into basketball reference, feel free to repost the names if you like.

    I don't like just using stats though because there are also players who don't necessarily get the opportunity who might be able to do something similar in that role.

    JV is BETTER than his role let me make that clear, all I'm saying is I think the team could get better replacing him with someone who's as good defensively as he is offensively at center and then someone who can get us comparable offensive efficiency on ~10 FGA at the 4. This is mainly because he's underutilized in our system. If we went to him more in the post I would not make that assessment.
    Last edited by Lupe; Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:20 AM.

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      Remember I was only talking about offense so someone like Cody Zeller can give you an efficient 10-15ppg on the number of shots that JV gets. Basically just talking about a PF who can give us about that many points efficiently. Again that's not super rare. It is if you set the bar at 60 TS% but if you say just efficient (i.e. above average 55+TS%) and that level of scoring a lot more names come up. I've put it into basketball reference, feel free to repost the names if you like.

      I don't like just using stats though because there are also players who don't necessarily get the opportunity who might be able to do something similar in that role.

      JV is BETTER than his role let me make that clear, all I'm saying is I think the team could get better replacing him with someone who's as good defensively as he is offensively at center and then someone who can get us comparable offensive efficiency on ~10 FGA at the 4. This is mainly because he's underutilized in our system. If we went to him more in the post I would not make that assessment.
      Keep in mind that right now we are searching for an effective 4 man, because we need someone to space the floor to have the offence be effective. Take JV and replace him with a non-threat and that need becomes far greater. So not only are you then looking for an offensive PF who can produce efficiently like JV does, but can also hit the three.

      Last season, looking at F's, and filtering for 55% TS% on 10 FGA/game, and 35%+ 3PT%, you get this list:

      Kawhi Leonard
      Draymond Green
      Paul George
      Kevin Love
      Dirk Nowitzki
      Trevor Ariza
      Chandler Parsons

      So, yeah. I'm not seeing this as easy.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Keep in mind that right now we are searching for an effective 4 man, because we need someone to space the floor to have the offence be effective. Take JV and replace him with a non-threat and that need becomes far greater. So not only are you then looking for an offensive PF who can produce efficiently like JV does, but can also hit the three.

        Last season, looking at F's, and filtering for 55% TS% on 10 FGA/game, and 35%+ 3PT%, you get this list:

        Kawhi Leonard
        Draymond Green
        Paul George
        Kevin Love
        Dirk Nowitzki
        Trevor Ariza
        Chandler Parsons

        So, yeah. I'm not seeing this as easy.
        Not sure why you added the 10 FGA to your filter. You're trying to make it way too specific to make a point. You disqualified someone like Ersan Ilyasova by doing that (who takes 9.4). I just said ~10. That could be 7, 8 or 9 (hell I used the example of Zeller and he takes 7). Just around there. It doesn't need to be some hard and fast statistical definition.

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        • Zeller just got a $56M/4 year contract.. I'd rather keep JV at an extra $2M a year even in his reduced role.

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          • Duplicated.
            Last edited by McRealistic; Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:44 AM.

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            • Lupe wrote: View Post
              Not sure why you added the 10 FGA to your filter. You're trying to make it way too specific to make a point. You disqualified someone like Ersan Ilyasova by doing that (who takes 9.4). I just said ~10. That could be 7, 8 or 9 (hell I used the example of Zeller and he takes 7). Just around there. It doesn't need to be some hard and fast statistical definition.
              7 it is then!

              That adds to the list:

              Marvin Williams
              Otto Porter
              Harrison Barnes
              Kelly Olynyk
              Nikola Mirotic
              Mirza Teletovic
              Omri Casspi
              Doug McDermott

              Several of those aren't PF's. But leaving that aside - can you tell me honestly you think the Raptors would be a better team with any of those guys and a rim protector than they are right now?
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • Nevermind that I've left out any defensive restriction on these PF's we seek. We saw what the Raps' defence looked like with an elite rim protector and a defensive problem at PF last year when Biz started with Scola.

                4-man lineup of KL-DD-Scola-Biz (leaving out SF because it was a revolving door) had a DRTG of 108.5. That's half a point worse than the same 4-man unit with JV. So really we are searching for a rim protector who can rebound and won't completely kill the offence AND a PF who can score on decent volume with decent efficiency and can hit the three AND can defend adequately...
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  I don't think anyone is arguing that you can specifically duplicate what JV is giving us.

                  The argument is that you are seeking to maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of the team as a whole.

                  So rather than searching for an offensive option who gives us 14ppg on 60%TS, you need someone who gives us better than DeMar's 56.4%. And it doesn't really even need to be that much better, because there may be benefits simply to balancing the roster to have more of a center of gravity down low.

                  Cousins is producing 27.5ppg on 56.7% and the attention he commands opens things up for the rest of the team. One of the most-often repeated arguments about Rudy Gay's improved efficiency since joining the Kings is that he benefits from Cousins. Well someone like Cousins can give that to us. Those kind of effects can't be mathematically predicted, they just speak to how the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

                  We're going to need to be creative in order to raise our ceiling. Yes it may be a risk to trade JV (who has certainly been efficient for us in his role) or make any other major move, but the alternative is to keep doing the same things over and over again expecting a different result.

                  Great Post ... Simply Great.

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                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    Zeller just got a $56M/4 year contract.. I'd rather keep JV at an extra $2M a year even in his reduced role.
                    Great Point as well as long as we are happy with the way this team is performing. JV is locked in an amazing contract ... With his potential, he is a Bargain now but that being said, it makes him a great thread value if we want to improve.

                    Lets face it, with this team being where it is and with KL getting seriously paid next summer, how else can we improve ?

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                    • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                      Great Point as well as long as we are happy with the way this team is performing. JV is locked in an amazing contract ... With his potential, he is a Bargain now but that being said, it makes him a great thread value if we want to improve.

                      Lets face it, with this team being where it is and with KL getting seriously paid next summer, how else can we improve ?
                      Trade literally any of the other assets we have, including Ross, Carroll, CoJo, Patterson, one or more of the SEVEN players we have on rookie scale or minimum deals, or one or more of the abundance of draft picks we have over the next few years?

                      We could try that, maybe? Why is it always painted as the team having one option to improve? Masai has left the team in a position to improve in any variety of ways with any variety of assets as the cost. The team isn't shoehorned in the least.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                        Great Point as well as long as we are happy with the way this team is performing. JV is locked in an amazing contract ... With his potential, he is a Bargain now but that being said, it makes him a great thread value if we want to improve.

                        Lets face it, with this team being where it is and with KL getting seriously paid next summer, how else can we improve ?
                        "Improving" is beating Lebron, GSW, San Antonio and probably LAC. It's not easy.. not even with a guy like Cousins. Just as an example, this is Paul's 6th year in LAC now.. and they as a team have yet to get to the WCF.

                        Can improve in a lot of ways without having to trade JV even if has great trade value. Raptors have 3 picks in the 2017 draft.. maybe one or two of the emerge as once in a lifetime picks like Manu was for San Antonio, Green was for GSW or Butler was for Chicago. Or maybe Ross is the better trade chip because most teams already have a starting caliber center on their team and would want an efficient 3&D player that costs only $10M a year and is locked in.

                        I'm okay with a little patience. This franchise deserves continuous stability. Last thing I want is an attempt at a homerun only to strikeout and have to pay the penance for 3-5 years. Eventually Lebron will be out of the league, or be too old that he won't be as impactful. If we can get a blue chip star that can elevate us past Lebron then sure, but I don't think Cousins will do that. He'll create more problems than he will solve in my opinion (assuming Sacramento even lets him go).

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                        • Also Bosh is out there.. he may want to come to Toronto. He won't be able to play in the playoffs this year, but could next year. I'd love a JV/Bosh tandem in the front court. That could be lethal (assuming Bosh can even play).

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Trade literally any of the other assets we have, including Ross, Carroll, CoJo, Patterson, one or more of the SEVEN players we have on rookie scale or minimum deals, or one or more of the abundance of draft picks we have over the next few years?

                            We could try that, maybe? Why is it always painted as the team having one option to improve? Masai has left the team in a position to improve in any variety of ways with any variety of assets as the cost. The team isn't shoehorned in the least.
                            It's not one option but those players have significantly less value than JV. Again I would not trade JV unless we actually already have acquired Noel or the like but none of those other guys are bringing a star back in a trade. You have to give to get and we're not going to get a game-changing player for role players and middling prospects. Think about it, nobody here wants to trade JV unless it's for a star. So why would other teams want to trade their star for just good players?

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                            • Lupe wrote: View Post
                              It's not one option but those players have significantly less value than JV. Again I would not trade JV unless we actually already have acquired Noel or the like but none of those other guys are bringing a star back in a trade. You have to give to get and we're not going to get a game-changing player for role players and middling prospects. Think about it, nobody here wants to trade JV unless it's for a star. So why would other teams want to trade their star for just good players?
                              I've seen this quite a bit.. what star is actually available? And does the team trading that 'star' need a center or do they already have one?

                              Getting Noel isn't helpful unless we have a plan. Noel is an RFA after this year. And could command up to $15M a year+. Heck Zeller got $14M a year. And when Sully is back who's playing backup Center? He or Noel? Seems like there won't be enough minutes to go around.

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                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                I've seen this quite a bit.. what star is actually available? And does the team trading that 'star' need a center or do they already have one?

                                Getting Noel isn't helpful unless we have a plan. Noel is an RFA after this year. And could command up to $15M a year+. Heck Zeller got $14M a year. And when Sully is back who's playing backup Center? He or Noel? Seems like there won't be enough minutes to go around.
                                But this is what I've said? I'd like to acquire Noel as a backup and possibly trade JV also but only if we can acquire the level of PF we want in exchange. At least unlike Biyombo or Sullinger we'd have control over whether we can keep him or not without shipping out other players, and he's still very young with a lot of upside.

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