Game #43 Hawks (12-27) @ Raptors (30-12) Tuesday January 8th 2019. TSN 230 am(Vilnius, Lithuania) 900pm(St Johns) 830pm(Halifax) 730pm(Toronto) 630pm(Winnipeg) 530pm(Calgary) 430pm(Vancouver)

[golden]

You’re judging it off of a game where the Raptors played down to their opponents? Everyone made mistakes they normally don’t.

FVV has had an up and down year, he did get injured, but I’d say he has earned minutes with his play recently.

One game? lol. C'mon, man. Fred's been widely inconsistent and outright horrid at times for the whole season (i.e. up and down). He's mostly looked good only with the starting unit, and even then he's dragged them down at times. I'll change my mind when he returns to the backup PG role and gets the bench mob producing again.

[golden]

Basketball IQ doesn't go down. He had as many turnovers last night than he had in his last 4 games combined but it was a team-wide issue that was clearly a result of a let down after the big weekend. We get it, you don't think he's a very good player but clearly your opinion is not shared by the organization.

Actually, I'm in agreement with DanH that he's being used wrong, with the slight difference that DanH thinks FVV should go permanently off-ball, but then what's the point? He's a backup PG... but Nurse seems to be testing his limits in different roles that it seems fairly obvious he isn't suited for.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Actually, I'm in agreement with DanH that he's being used wrong, with the slight difference that DanH thinks FVV should go permanently off-ball, but then what's the point? He's a backup PG... but Nurse seems to be testing his limits in different roles that it seems fairly obvious he isn't suited for.

That’s fair. To me off ball is a bit ambiguous, I like him in catch and shoot situations and he drives me crazy when he stands at the top and pounds the ball into the ground like he’s Corey Joseph. I’m fine with him being the point guard and bringing the ball over half but I also think he excels out of the corner in any HORNS formations or when Siakam, Lowry or Kawhi brings the ball up. I feel much more confident in him in those situations.

[inthepaint]

I think FVV has been ok this year. Struggled to run the pnr a bit but the frame of reference he's being compared to is Lowry who's just masterful at it. Had some rough shooting nights here and there, but then again so has the whole team. I think the fact that he's been a starter when one of the regular starters is out (which happened a lot this season) may have raised people's expectations that he should play "starter level" all the time, but the reality is he's not there yet in his development. And that's ok.

Powell had an encouraging stretch of play but that's been just a few games, and Wright hasn't been stellar either. They both still got work to do if they wanna be ahead of FVV in the rotation, imo. Close race though, and that't good (internal competition)

[golden]

I think FVV has been ok this year. Struggled to run the pnr a bit but the frame of reference he's being compared to is Lowry who's just masterful at it. Had some rough shooting nights here and there, but then again so has the whole team. I think the fact that he's been a starter when one of the regular starters is out (which happened a lot this season) may have raised people's expectations that he should play "starter level" all the time, but the reality is he's not there yet in his development. And that's ok.

Powell had an encouraging stretch of play but that's been just a few games, and Wright hasn't been stellar either. They both still got work to do if they wanna be ahead of FVV in the rotation, imo. Close race though, and that't good (internal competition)

So we all agree that FVV is a backup PG, so the expectation is that he needs to excel as the defacto leader of the bench when both Kyle & Kawhi need to rest at the same time. That was a big part of his job last season and why he was re-signed this year. He hasn't done that consistently this year, and when we go all bench is where we're letting opposing teams get back into games, making it tough on the starters.

[DanH]

So we all agree that FVV is a backup PG, so the expectation is that he needs to excel as the defacto leader of the bench when both Kyle & Kawhi need to rest at the same time. That was a big part of his job last season and why he was re-signed this year. He hasn't done that consistently this year, and when we go all bench is where we're letting opposing teams get back into games, making it tough on the starters.

Fred can be a backup PG, starting the offence into motion and bringing the ball up court, without being the primary option in PnR and dribbling 100 times per possession. The position is not the problem. The usage is. It's been obvious since day 1 of the season.

[MixxAOR]

JV is out for 4 more weeks

[golden]

Fred can be a backup PG, starting the offence into motion and bringing the ball up court, without being the primary option in PnR and dribbling 100 times per possession. The position is not the problem. The usage is. It's been obvious since day 1 of the season.

The over-dribbling, we agree on 100%. We're only slightly off on the usage. He does need to learn how to run PnR like a traditional PG, though, or else we're talking about using him as a very tiny shooting guard. Then, what's the point? Get a replacement level SG or bigger combo guard.

FVV should at least be able to make bounce passes to the roll man with the proper timing. That should be a bare minimum PG skill, especially him being lower to the ground than most, and since he's limited in a lot of other ways (e.g. too small to finish at the rim, too slow to gain advantage off the dribble, inconsistent & sometimes wild floaters, weak counters as the ball-handler on PnR, etc.....)

It's not the be-all-end-all stat, but if you take an impact stat like PIPM, then FVV is truly in that replacement level backup PG range, behind guys like JJ Barea, DJ Augustin, DJ White, CoJo, Shabazz Napier, Elfrid Payton, Tyus Jones, Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison & Monte Morris and barely above Devin Harris, Bryn Forbes and Raul Neto. That's a whole lot of meh, there.

If you want to expand that to SGs who can handle the ball, the list expands.

[The Claw Reborn]

Cavs will get lucky again and nab the first pick. Zion will most likely go there

Chicago will probably go for no.2 Barrett

I have a feeling NY and Suns may miss out on both. DS should help me with this Nostradamus stuff

Thoughts on some of the other prosepcts of this draft?

[Demographic Shift]

The over-dribbling, we agree on 100%. We're only slightly off on the usage. He does need to learn how to run PnR like a traditional PG, though, or else we're talking about using him as a very tiny shooting guard. Then, what's the point? Get a replacement level SG or bigger combo guard.

FVV should at least be able to make bounce passes to the roll man with the proper timing. That should be a bare minimum PG skill, especially him being lower to the ground than most, and since he's limited in a lot of other ways (e.g. too small to finish at the rim, too slow to gain advantage off the dribble, inconsistent & sometimes wild floaters, weak counters as the ball-handler on PnR, etc.....)

It's not the be-all-end-all stat, but if you take an impact stat like PIPM, then FVV is truly in that replacement level backup PG range, behind guys like JJ Barea, DJ Augustin, DJ White, CoJo, Shabazz Napier, Elfrid Payton, Tyus Jones, Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison & Monte Morris and barely above Devin Harris, Bryn Forbes and Raul Neto. That's a whole lot of meh, there.

If you want to expand that to SGs who can handle the ball, the list expands.

Ah... No.

[DanH]

The over-dribbling, we agree on 100%. We're only slightly off on the usage. He does need to learn how to run PnR like a traditional PG, though, or else we're talking about using him as a very tiny shooting guard. Then, what's the point? Get a replacement level SG or bigger combo guard.

FVV should at least be able to make bounce passes to the roll man with the proper timing. That should be a bare minimum PG skill, especially him being lower to the ground than most, and since he's limited in a lot of other ways (e.g. too small to finish at the rim, too slow to gain advantage off the dribble, inconsistent & sometimes wild floaters, weak counters as the ball-handler on PnR, etc.....)

It's not the be-all-end-all stat, but if you take an impact stat like PIPM, then FVV is truly in that replacement level backup PG range, behind guys like JJ Barea, DJ Augustin, DJ White, CoJo, Shabazz Napier, Elfrid Payton, Tyus Jones, Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison & Monte Morris and barely above Devin Harris, Bryn Forbes and Raul Neto. That's a whole lot of meh, there.

If you want to expand that to SGs who can handle the ball, the list expands.

But we already have a guy who should be handling the ball with the bench in PnR. His name is Delon Wright and he's way more effective on the ball than off, so what's the issue with FVV being more effective off the ball than on? Never mind that you can toss Powell some possessions here and there, and that Siakam (who should always be with the bench, especially when Kawhi or Lowry are not) needs to be creating offence too. Other than that, in the playoffs we should have one of Lowry or Kawhi with the bench and running the PnR at all times anyway.

And the answer to your question of what the point is, is that FVV is way more impactful than those guys when playing his best, and we want to be a better team, not a worse team. Fixating on things you think a player should be better at while ignoring the things they do to help the team is a terrible way to run a team.

[Scraptor]

You know times are good in Raptorland when our main squabble is about the backup point guard lol

[KeonClark]

Kyle's THICC THIGHS (I call the butt cheeks thunder and lightning) claim another victim

Legend has it Collins is still picking himself up off the ACC floor

[Demographic Shift]

Kyle's THICC THIGHS (I call the butt cheeks thunder and lightning) claim another victim

Legend has it Collins is still picking himself up off the ACC floor

The best body on body hit this year at the ACC.. and that includes the Leafs.
Collins is still checking if his internal organs are in the right place.

[Jclaw]

Kyle's THICC THIGHS (I call the butt cheeks thunder and lightning) claim another victim

Legend has it Collins is still picking himself up off the ACC floor

The funny thing is that nobody is mentioning that Kawhi followed Kyle's lead and body checked Lin to the ground leaving Ibaka open for the dunk