Bill Simmons: NBA Trade Value

[thead]

JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.

I think I have more offensive tools than Dwight Howard

[thead]

wow...I don't know what I think of this. I mean Harden will likely be a perennial all star and does so many things extremely well.

However JV has the potential to be a perennial all star...

I don't think I can take a side on this and really say what the better move would have been.

[Mediumcore]

That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.

I agree that you don't average 20 points a game strictly on having plays run for you, especially if you're a big. However my point was just that I don't see JV as a 20 point player every night, in this league without having quite a few touches in the post like what Duncan gets. And that is especially the case with two guys like DeMar and Rudy on the same team whom are high volume shooters. There's only so many touches to go around.

If it's between either JV or Harden as to whom would attract more star talent to the Raptors, in my mind it's no question that Harden would more so than JV.

I'm still on the fence about whether I would have done that trade or not. Harden is a proven franchise talent where as JV is showing signs that he might be, but has a much longer way to go to get to that level.

[Soft Euro]

Harden is actually an underrated play-maker. Makes plays for his teammates, especially when he was in OKC WHEN he was surrounded by superstar players; he played the combo guard game. That's why so many are STILL to this point disappointed in the fact that Harden was traded, his ability to take the play-making responsibilities off of Westbrook, and incredible scoring, was the intangible for that team to take a championship over Miami.

I don't think he was ever underrated as a playmaker; e.g. I've heard and read many times in the last OKC-years that Harden was their best passer.

[ReubenJRD]

That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.

Harden is actually an underrated play-maker. Makes plays for his teammates, especially when he was in OKC WHEN he was surrounded by superstar players; he played the combo guard game. That's why so many are STILL to this point disappointed in the fact that Harden was traded, his ability to take the play-making responsibilities off of Westbrook, and incredible scoring, was the intangible for that team to take a championship over Miami.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

20 & 10 doesn't happen without demanding the ball in the post. Likely not going to happen unless DeMar or Gay and possibly both are traded. As far as attracting super stars goes...in today's NBA you have a better chance of attracting free agent super stars by having their friends on your team, not by having and established player on your team, imo. Just ask Mark Cuban how easy it's been to get a super star running mate for Dirk. Imo, the only way to get a super star in Toronto is via trade or draft.

That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.

[ReubenJRD]

Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.

Problem is, how many of those guys are playing for the Raptors right now?

The NBA is obviously NOW, a point guard league, but to be successful, you need an assortment of wings, and having Harden, than down the road Rudy Gay, would be an example of elite. Far better than our current duo of Derozan/Gay.

Derozan than becomes expendable, package Derozan with Bargnani, possibly throw in Ross as a sweetener (Ross and Derozan not getting minutes with Harden at two, Rudy at 3, Fields comes in as a balance 2/3), which allows some significant assets in return such as a centre, a pick, a prospect, etc.

Although, I'm on the board of having no MAJOR changes in the off-season, so everything I said is contradictory lol

[white men can't jump]

you can flip this around so easily to say:

in a rapidly changing league where there's such a huge premium on 3 pt shooting and ball movement, where every one of the best teams does not have a franchise traditional big except san antonio and (arguably) memphis, and yet all of them have franchise perimeter players, do you need one?

cuz to me all current evidence points towards 'no.'

You can flip THIS around and say, if you're going to try and win with a roster that emphasizes speed and shooting, are you really going to beat Miami or OKC at that game? I see the answer to that as firmly "no".

It's one of the main reasons a team like Memphis is building the way they are. They could've kept Gay, who gives them that dimension a bit, but instead opted to get even "slower" with Prince, emphasizing their strengths even more (yes I know there were money issues largely at the core of things, but I think there were basketball issues too, in terms of them hoping a downgrade would be a bit better for on-court chemistry). Why? Because the best chance a team will have to beat Miami (or OKC) will be to exploit their weaknesses, not out-do their strengths.

Even San Antonio, which emphasizes offense a lot more than they used to, still depends to a large degree on having an inside-out game initiated by Duncan and even a guy like Diaw.

[Fair89]

Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.

Bingo!

[Bouncepass]

I think it's too early to say whether refusing the Harden for JV trade was wise. Personally, I think that JV has a very high ceiling and could be the anchor on a very good team. If he reaches the ceiling of being a top-flight center, then I think BC made the right move. But there are also intangibles. Would Harden sign an extension in TO? Maybe BC was concerned that he would have problems re-signing Harden. He would have definitely needed to have an assurance that Harden would sign a long-term deal before even contemplating that trade. On the other hand, I see JV becoming a really important dimension of the Raptors' franchise DNA, on and off the court. He seems to be a very positive guy, whose enthusiasm rubs off on teammates. That can be a very valuable trait in building a franchise.

[NoPropsneeded]

you can flip this around so easily to say:

in a rapidly changing league where there's such a huge premium on 3 pt shooting and ball movement, where every one of the best teams does not have a franchise traditional big except san antonio and (arguably) memphis, and yet all of them have franchise perimeter players, do you need one?

cuz to me all current evidence points towards 'no.'

Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.

[white men can't jump]

Pass. Although Harden is definitely better than JV (at the moment), it is easier to build a core around JV.

Once JV polishes his game and averages 20-10, it would be easier to get superstars to come and play with him. One, because he is not a volume scorer, he wont need 20-30 shots a game since he will be working closer to the basket. its easier to acquire perimeter guys and combine them with bigmen rather than finding big men and combining them with perimeter players. Why? Because big men do not control the ball as much as perimeter guys. Big men go with the flow, so to speak and they dont demand. Its better to have an established big man on your team then build the team around him.

Indeed. With JV's tools, and FT shooting, he can average around 20 (give or take) on very few shots. The thing with a guy like JV, as much as he hasn't been passing and has been turning it over, you can already see the beginnings of a SMART post player. So he will always demand the ball, but never monopolize the offense, easily realizing the principle of passing up a shot for a better one. JV already increasingly rarely forces up a bad shot.

Building around a good 2-way big man is the easiest way to start building a team that can sustain success in the long-term, because it instantly gives you someone who can dominate the most important part of the court on any given night. And even if you have better players on the perimeter, it opens so much for them.

[Letter N]

JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.

That's a weird comparison since Dwight's dominance has nothing to do with his offensive tools.

[Mediumcore]

Pass. Although Harden is definitely better than JV (at the moment), it is easier to build a core around JV.

Once JV polishes his game and averages 20-10, it would be easier to get superstars to come and play with him. One, because he is not a volume scorer, he wont need 20-30 shots a game since he will be working closer to the basket. its easier to acquire perimeter guys and combine them with bigmen rather than finding big men and combining them with perimeter players. Why? Because big men do not control the ball as much as perimeter guys. Big men go with the flow, so to speak and they dont demand. Its better to have an established big man on your team then build the team around him.

20 & 10 doesn't happen without demanding the ball in the post. Likely not going to happen unless DeMar or Gay and possibly both are traded. As far as attracting super stars goes...in today's NBA you have a better chance of attracting free agent super stars by having their friends on your team, not by having and established player on your team, imo. Just ask Mark Cuban how easy it's been to get a super star running mate for Dirk. Imo, the only way to get a super star in Toronto is via trade or draft.

[Rapstor4Life]

JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.