A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

[Nilanka]

I would rather be the Atlanta Hawks than the Charlotte Bobcats......but i guess to you guys they're both the same. It's a shame. No free agents will come to a team that sucks (unless you overpay).....Atlanta has Millsap and Brand along with Korver, Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Dennis Shroder, Lou Williams, etc. They still have an opportunity to attract free agents or make a trade to get better during the season. They could be the next Indiana for all we know....they're one or two really good players away.

FYI - 28 other teams make the playoffs with nothing to show for it. Championship or bust is it? You need to come back to actually being a fan! THEN IF we win a championship it will be that much sweeter.

The Bobcats could've easily drafted Brook Lopez (instead of Augustin), Jrue Holiday (instead of Henderson), Damian Lillard (instead of Kidd-Gilchrist), etc. If they had a stronger scouting staff, they'd be climbing out of the basement pretty quickly.

With Masai here, why assume we'd make the same draft mistakes as Charlotte if given a few years of high draft picks? Sure, there's an element of luck involved with the draft, but there's also an element of intelligence, which a lot of anti-tankers refuse to acknowledge.

[mcHAPPY]

We hired a new GM who has decided to wait and see if this core can actually win games! Does that not matter to you pessimists?

I think we should call it the Bryan Colangelo syndrome....fans are so used to constant change (rosters, schemes, strategy, coaches) that they believe that every decision must be made NOW and QUICKLY. What happened to patience? Many of you are not patient with Demar and I fear you will not be patient with JV either. He needs time to develop....he needs to be surrounded with good talent NOT scraps and D-League'rs in the hope that we may get lucky in the draft...... It's madness! Just because he's a Euro, doesn't mean he won't take off at the first chance (if we continue losing)!

We should play the games to win. End Rant.

I think Bryan Colangelo syndrome is actually a condition where one assembles a set of flawed pieces hoping that each piece balances the weaknesses of another while simultaneously maximizing their potential in the hopes the Raptors make the playoffs.

Read my signature:

"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Tim Leiweke


This team as currently constructed is NEVER competing for a championship.

[mcHAPPY]

The Bobcats could've easily drafted Brook Lopez (instead of Augustin), Jrue Holiday (instead of Henderson), Damian Lillard (instead of Kidd-Gilchrist), etc. If they had a stronger scouting staff, they'd be climbing out of the basement pretty quickly.

With Masai here, why assume we'd make the same draft mistakes as Charlotte if given a few years of high draft picks?

Damn straight skippy!

Your team is only going as far as your management takes it. If you think Toronto has strong management in place, it is time to build a championship team because this isn't one.

[Axel]

I would rather be the Atlanta Hawks than the Charlotte Bobcats......but i guess to you guys they're both the same. It's a shame. No free agents will come to a team that sucks (unless you overpay).....Atlanta has Millsap and Brand along with Korver, Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Dennis Shroder, Lou Williams, etc. They still have an opportunity to attract free agents or make a trade to get better during the season. They could be the next Indiana for all we know....they're one or two really good players away.

FYI - 28 other teams make the playoffs with nothing to show for it. Championship or bust is it? You need to come back to actually being a fan! THEN IF we win a championship it will be that much sweeter.

You'd rather be which Atlanta Hawks, the treadmill team that has been completely dismantled and is now, in your words, "they're one or two really good players away."

For reference, the 2009 Hawks won 53 games with the roster of (in order of minutes played):
Joe Johnson
Jamal Crawford
Josh Smith
Al Horford
Marvin Williams
Mike Bibby
Maurice Evans
Zaza Pachulia
Jeff Teague
Joe Smith
Randolph Morris
Othello Hunter
Mario West
Jason Collins

All of those players are gone now except the two bolded. So you want to be the Atlanta Hawks and rebuild into a near contender, but you don't want us to rebuild?

[mcHAPPY]

Oh well.....

The thread had a little uniqueness for a while but now it is back to COMPETE vs. TANK

Merge it mods!

[white men can't jump]

Oh well.....

The thread had a little uniqueness for a while but now it is back to COMPETE vs. TANK

Merge it mods!

Oh well. It's preseason and it feels like everyone's been a bit too testy around here. I thought this thread was fine.

I mean, I'm not really pro-tank, but I can see the merits to the 2nd option because it's just good management to maximize asset value in trades. It leaves the door open to 'tank', but smartly, and it also leaves the door open to make a trade(s) to improve the team rather than 'tank'. It will be dictated by how well the guys play, who else is on the market, and how good our GM is. That all seems really sensible to me and I don't know why anyone would have a problem with it.

[special1]

The Bobcats could've easily drafted Brook Lopez (instead of Augustin), Jrue Holiday (instead of Henderson), Damian Lillard (instead of Kidd-Gilchrist), etc. If they had a stronger scouting staff, they'd be climbing out of the basement pretty quickly.

With Masai here, why assume we'd make the same draft mistakes as Charlotte if given a few years of high draft picks? Sure, there's an element of luck involved with the draft, but there's also an element of intelligence, which a lot of anti-tankers refuse to acknowledge.

I'm not assuming anything.....thats why i dont like to play craps! The draft is a crapshoot.....I'm sure you've heard this before.

Furthermore --

Many of us believe BC was incompetent. However, Bryan Collangelo drafted JV. Personally, i'm still on a wait and see with JV. I love the guy and i pray he becomes the player that we all hope, BUT what makes you posters so sure that JV is someone we should build around?? It looks to me like there are a whole bunch of good *young to fairly young* centers in the league (Drummond, JV, Kanter, Favors, Gasol, Lopez, Howard, etc).

What has JV done so far that we think we should tear down the entire roster and build around him?? Are we back on the hope train like we were with IL Mago? I don't think its a good thing to put all your hope into one player (or drafts for that matter). If he's really the player we think he is, then he will emerge on his own. Especially with good players like Gay, DD, Lowry, Amir, Hansborough surrounding him.

**Please don't confuse the above with any notion that i want to get rid of JV**

[Bendit]

I would rather be the Atlanta Hawks than the Charlotte Bobcats......but i guess to you guys they're both the same. It's a shame. No free agents will come to a team that sucks (unless you overpay).....Atlanta has Millsap and Brand along with Korver, Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Dennis Shroder, Lou Williams, etc. They still have an opportunity to attract free agents or make a trade to get better during the season. They could be the next Indiana for all we know....they're one or two really good players away.

FYI - 28 other teams have nothing to show for it. Championship or bust is it? You need to come back to actually being a fan! THEN IF we win a championship it will be that much sweeter.

As you know the players (other than Horford) you mention belong to the current/yet to play Hawks team under a new gm Ferry who took a bit of an axe to the previous version of many years which I believe poster Nilanka was probably referring to who regurgitated in place year after year depending on Johnson's perpetually disappearing jumpshot at crunchtime in the playoffs. In JJ's defense he did not have great help

[special1]

I think Bryan Colangelo syndrome is actually a condition where one assembles a set of flawed pieces hoping that each piece balances the weaknesses of another while simultaneously maximizing their potential in the hopes the Raptors make the playoffs.
Read my signature:

"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Tim Leiweke


This team as currently constructed is NEVER competing for a championship.

This team as currently constructed is NOT a finished product. Actually, you can say that for about 26 other teams in the NBA. Should everyone else start tanking too?? I think that tanking is flawed, especially when others are doing the same thing!

[special1]

You'd rather be which Atlanta Hawks, the treadmill team that has been completely dismantled and is now, in your words, "they're one or two really good players away."

For reference, the 2009 Hawks won 53 games with the roster of (in order of minutes played):
Joe Johnson
Jamal Crawford
Josh Smith
Al Horford
Marvin Williams
Mike Bibby
Maurice Evans
Zaza Pachulia
Jeff Teague
Joe Smith
Randolph Morris
Othello Hunter
Mario West
Jason Collins

All of those players are gone now except the two bolded. So you want to be the Atlanta Hawks and rebuild into a near contender, but you don't want us to rebuild?

Are you actually saying that the Atlanta Hawks did what your suggesting we do?? What exactly are you saying? I'm saying i would rather make the playoffs and be like the Atlanta Hawks instead of a perrenial lottery team.....Do you understand?

[Nilanka]

I'm not assuming anything.....thats why i dont like to play craps! The draft is a crapshoot.....I'm sure you've heard this before.

Furthermore --

Many of us believe BC was incompetent. However, Bryan Collangelo drafted JV. Personally, i'm still on a wait and see with JV. I love the guy and i pray he becomes the player that we all hope, BUT what makes you posters so sure that JV is someone we should build around?? It looks to me like there are a whole bunch of good *young to fairly young* centers in the league (Drummond, JV, Kanter, Favors, Gasol, Lopez, Howard, etc).

What has JV done so far that we think we should tear down the entire roster and build around him?? Are we back on the hope train like we were with IL Mago? I don't think its a good thing to put all your hope into one player (or drafts for that matter). If he's really the player we think he is, then he will emerge on his own. Especially with good players like Gay, DD, Lowry, Amir, Hansborough surrounding him.

**Please don't confuse the above with any notion that i want to get rid of JV**

To be fair, the merits of building through the draft remain the same regardless of whether Jonas is part of the plan.

In other words, even if Masai decides that Jonas isn't a franchise player, the benefits of the draft remain.

[mcHAPPY]

This team as currently constructed is NOT a finished product. Actually, you can say that for about 26 other teams in the NBA. Should everyone else start tanking too?? I think that tanking is flawed, especially when others are doing the same thing!

Not all of those 26 other teams are capped out with their current core and relying on a mid first round draft pick at draft time.

[mcHAPPY]

Are you actually saying that the Atlanta Hawks did what your suggesting we do?? What exactly are you saying? I'm saying i would rather make the playoffs and be like the Atlanta Hawks instead of a perrenial lottery team.....Do you understand?

I think most of us do.

Do you understand that we would rather see the team built to compete for championships instead of a perrenial stepping stone in the first or second round of the playoffs? ,,,,, Do you understand?

[mcHAPPY]

To be fair, the merits of building through the draft remain the same regardless of whether Jonas is part of the plan.

In other words, even if Masai decides that Jonas isn't a franchise player, the benefits of the draft remain.

Exactly.

Also along sort of the same lines.... drafting a player doesn't mean you actually reap the rewards and keep him. If reports are to be believed, the Raptors could have had Harden in a package for JV. Don't really want to get in to a discussion on that rumour but the point is if you get a lot of draft picks/prospects, somebody is going to make you offers at point for proven talent on the hopes of cheaper potential.

Cap space is for more than free agency and draft picks are for more than developing young players..... I think I have a new motto.

[Bendit]

This team as currently constructed is NOT a finished product. Actually, you can say that for about 26 other teams in the NBA. Should everyone else start tanking too?? I think that tanking is flawed, especially when others are doing the same thing!

For practical purposes it really is. The team is all capped out. To continue construction/finish the product hard decisions have to be made to clear space (and all that entails). The term "tanking" has many variations/meanings.