GT: TOR Raptors @ PHI 76ers: MCW Drops a Quadruple Double on T.dot

[Ambidextrious]

Thanks Ambidextrious, it took like an hour to compare and write down LOL

lol! no way man you're a trooper.



Anyways, good stuff and keep it up!

[Ambidextrious]

Enlightenment:

-Lance is a much better shooter and passer and defender than DD. Oh and he has made actual improvement every year, unlike DD, who had his best season as a rookie.

-Eric Gordon was an all-star at one point before a terrible injury, he is a better offensive player in EVERY aspect. Defensively is about the same. Remember DD still hasn't made an all-star team, for good reason.

-I can't believe you just tried to compared DD to Wade. Dig up man

-Joe Johnson is off to a rough start, but over the course of his career he has been a better player in every aspect offensively, same level of defense.

-Martin has always been a very good shooter, and when he isn't injured is one of the best in the NBA at scoring. DD is a player who only brings scoring to the game, but who also struggles to score.

-Oladipo you argue has a lower TS% (which is your only stat apparently), but you also said INCLUDING POTENTIAL, Oladipo is a clear winner over DD in that department. Clear winner.

-I could also list Jimmy Butler, Waiters, Mayo, Shumpert, Jordan Crawford, Lamb, Matthews, McLemore, Hardaway Jr., if you want to consider potential. At this stage in DD's career, there isn't much potential left, so I'm going to compare him to veterans, because that's what he is, and he desperately falls short against them. 4th year players need to be producing.

-DD's contract isn't his fault, it's Colangelo's. Still is an over-payment though. And your examples are very poor. Kobe is actually worth 30 million and Harden is actually worth 15.7, DeMar is worth much less than 9.5.

Hows that haterade tasting for you pal?

[white men can't jump]

I don't mind keeping Demar, but I have to be honest, I really want to know how Ross would do if he was given the starting SG position going forward.

I understand that opinion, but I'm sure you agree it doesn't mean DeMar has to go. THink he could make a really excellent 6th man. I also don't think he's a bad starter, and think generally he just needs to be moved down the pecking order to the 3rd/4th option.

I see positives to keeping him around even as the team rebuilds, one of which is that for this year and maybe next, having him start, even though he's not a true primary scorer, will still help take pressure off young guys. Ross can be groomed to start slowly, and I'm fine if it takes til his 3rd or 4th season to make that change, if he earns it.

[Blacklash2k4]

I understand that opinion, but I'm sure you agree it doesn't mean DeMar has to go. THink he could make a really excellent 6th man. I also don't think he's a bad starter, and think generally he just needs to be moved down the pecking order to the 3rd/4th option.

I see positives to keeping him around even as the team rebuilds, one of which is that for this year and maybe next, having him start, even though he's not a true primary scorer, will still help take pressure off young guys. Ross can be groomed to start slowly, and I'm fine if it takes til his 3rd or 4th season to make that change, if he earns it.

I agree with you. Demar doesn't have to go for that to happen. I think he does make a good 6th man especially for this season and maybe the next season going forward. The only problem is that I want Casey to use him more off the bench and he gets more than just 18 minutes per game. Same with how he needs to give JV more minutes. Casey just doesn't seem to be very good with developing his young, high-potential players...

[enlightenment]

Enlightenment:

-Lance is a much better shooter and passer and defender than DD. Oh and he has made actual improvement every year, unlike DD, who had his best season as a rookie.

-Eric Gordon was an all-star at one point before a terrible injury, he is a better offensive player in EVERY aspect. Defensively is about the same. Remember DD still hasn't made an all-star team, for good reason.

-I can't believe you just tried to compared DD to Wade. Dig up man

-Joe Johnson is off to a rough start, but over the course of his career he has been a better player in every aspect offensively, same level of defense.

-Martin has always been a very good shooter, and when he isn't injured is one of the best in the NBA at scoring. DD is a player who only brings scoring to the game, but who also struggles to score.

-Oladipo you argue has a lower TS% (which is your only stat apparently), but you also said INCLUDING POTENTIAL, Oladipo is a clear winner over DD in that department. Clear winner.

-I could also list Jimmy Butler, Waiters, Mayo, Shumpert, Jordan Crawford, Lamb, Matthews, McLemore, Hardaway Jr., if you want to consider potential. At this stage in DD's career, there isn't much potential left, so I'm going to compare him to veterans, because that's what he is, and he desperately falls short against them. 4th year players need to be producing.

-DD's contract isn't his fault, it's Colangelo's. Still is an over-payment though. And your examples are very poor. Kobe is actually worth 30 million and Harden is actually worth 15.7, DeMar is worth much less than 9.5.

Instead of referring to anything that Ive said, you just expound your opinion and act as if the reasoning is obvious. I dont really see the stats to back up anything you say, or the arguments against averaging 15 games less per season, or age, or pretty much anything that I brought up.

And TS% is in my opinion the best measure of someones shooting ability. You have to compare TS% and amount of shots taken to see the degree of difficulty it is to maintain. So even though Lance has a marginal increase in TS% compared to Demar, Demar takes 38% more shots, If Lance took 38% more shots currently it would be difficult for him to maintain his TS%, therefor Demars ability to have way more usage/more offensive burden and yet maintain nearly the same TS% as Lance shows that he is a better scorer and can handle more offensive burden (and thus a larger role than Lance, who is a role player).
This is the biggest issue when you compare Demar to random Role players. Role players are playing against less aggressive defenses, only take the shots that are open or gimme's, and dont have as much Usage in a game (therefor are fresher). So Demars %'s come on a higher degree of difficulty.

But I dont think you really care, I sort of tried to explain this in my first post too, and I tried to explain plenty of other things (Like why I would 100% prefer to lock up Demar over Wade right now), but you didnt want to have it and just dismissed it without good reason. Until you engage with my arguments, I doubt I will respond further, as I would just be typing for no reason.

[Puffer]

I don't mind keeping Demar, but I have to be honest, I really want to know how Ross would do if he was given the starting SG position going forward.

I will admit that in 4 of the games so far this year, Ross has impressed me. But I still don't understand how people can see what he has b=done so far, and then make the intuitive leap that by giving him 10 - 15 more minutes a game, somehow this entirely different player will emerge. Maybe that will happen, in which case I would be deliriously happy. I just don't see it though. Colour me sceptical.

[Blacklash2k4]

I will admit that in 4 of the games so far this year, Ross has impressed me. But I still don't understand how people can see what he has b=done so far, and then make the intuitive leap that by giving him 10 - 15 more minutes a game, somehow this entirely different player will emerge. Maybe that will happen, in which case I would be deliriously happy. I just don't see it though. Colour me sceptical.

I don't expect him to make an intuitive leap right away given 10-15 more minutes. That's not the point. The point is to get him more game time and thus, more experience and development on the court. It's the same reasoning as giving JV more minutes. You want JV to learn more on the court and get used to playing heavier minutes as his role increases in his 2nd year. It's not about instantaneously becoming an amazing playing overnight by giving Ross more minutes. It's about the extra experience and development that he can get by receiving a bigger role and more minutes.

[OldSkoolCool]

Instead of referring to anything that Ive said, you just expound your opinion and act as if the reasoning is obvious. I dont really see the stats to back up anything you say, or the arguments against averaging 15 games less per season, or age, or pretty much anything that I brought up.

And TS% is in my opinion the best measure of someones shooting ability. You have to compare TS% and amount of shots taken to see the degree of difficulty it is to maintain. So even though Lance has a marginal increase in TS% compared to Demar, Demar takes 38% more shots, If Lance took 38% more shots currently it would be difficult for him to maintain his TS%, therefor Demars ability to have way more usage/more offensive burden and yet maintain nearly the same TS% as Lance shows that he is a better scorer and can handle more offensive burden (and thus a larger role than Lance, who is a role player).
This is the biggest issue when you compare Demar to random Role players. Role players are playing against less aggressive defenses, only take the shots that are open or gimme's, and dont have as much Usage in a game (therefor are fresher). So Demars %'s come on a higher degree of difficulty.

But I dont think you really care, I sort of tried to explain this in my first post too, and I tried to explain plenty of other things (Like why I would 100% prefer to lock up Demar over Wade right now), but you didnt want to have it and just dismissed it without good reason. Until you engage with my arguments, I doubt I will respond further, as I would just be typing for no reason.

Ok I will avoid trying to make generalizations and focus on specifics. TS% is a poor indicator by its-self for how good a player is. There are many variables, nearly all of which DD does at a less than league average rate. Yes many players may have a worse TS%, but are they worse players? Not necessarily, if you bothered to read, you would see that I explicitly state that other SG's do other things on the basketball court other than shoot a ton, which makes them better, because they make their team's better. I need more than TS% to prove that a player is a win-producing player. Second, Lance May be

I compare DD against role players because that is what DD is...if I compare him to SG's who are the dominant players on their respective teams, DD is simply out-classed, because he is, again, a SG who is below average in most statistical categories.

"Dwayne Wade: Demar has more range than Dwade, scores more at the same TS%, Averages DOUBLE the turnovers than Demar at the same USG%, Dwade gets hurt much more (averages 66 games per season the past 8 seasons), is a career 76% FT shooter, is older and is declining fast. " - enlightenment

Wade isn't a shooter, instead he is an attacking guard who makes everyone around him better, he also does it while having a higher TS%, eFG% and FG% in every season, he also has scored more, rebounded more, has a higher PER, has more steals, more blocks, more FTA... The type of player he is also means that he has a higher USG%, higher AST%, higher ORAT, higher OWS and higher ORBD%, yes he has a higher TO%, that's because of the game he plays. DD is a low TO player because he catches and shoots the majority of the time (its like saying you don't want Steve Nash handling the ball because he is turnover prone, totally different style result in different stats). Now lets get to the defensive end, where Wade is better in EVERY statistical category. Yes he is getting older, yes he is declining, yes he is injury prone, BUT he is still a better player and produces more wins in about 2/3 the amount of games as DD. There is no way you can argue that you want to lock up DD over Wade, considering Wade will be better than DD for the duration his next contract (which is really all that matters)

Lance VS DeMar

advanced stats:

DeMar has a better PER, FTr, STL%, BLK%, USG%, TOV%, ORAT and OWS
Lance has a better TS%, eFG%, 3PAr, ORDB%, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, DRTG, DWS, WS/48

Well the combination of stats present indicates that Lance is a better defender, rebounder, distributor (which leads to inherently higher TOV%) and better shooter from distance, whereas DD takes better care of the ball, shoots more FT's, and is slightly a better offensive player (by slightly I mean that his ORTG is 1 point higher). In sum, it says that Lance is the better player.

Wait, let's throw our evidence out the window for just a second and assume that the stats say they are equal players; Do you think Lance Stephenson is a top 5 SG in the NBA? Do you think he is worth a 9.5 million contract? Do you think he is a cornerstone piece of a franchise?

Now answer those same questions but about DeMar, but including the statistical evidence that shows Lance is a better player than DD.

What answers do you come up with?

[Puffer]

...It's the same reasoning as giving JV more minutes. You want JV to learn more on the court and get used to playing heavier minutes as his role increases in his 2nd year. It's not about instantaneously becoming an amazing playing overnight by giving Ross more minutes. It's about the extra experience and development that he can get by receiving a bigger role and more minutes.

It could happen, but we all see JV focusing hard, going hard, and not taking any time off when he's out there. He has shown good fundamentals since day one...just not everything he needs at the NBA level. Ross, on the other hand, has shown tremendous athleticism, and spurts of daydreaming, bad positioning, a tendency to still go under screens on D instead of fighting over them, a lack of knowledge of opposing players as if he hasn't studied the scouting reports, and some pretty bad shooting. I think he was the airball king last year.

Most of the stuff I mentioned above, you develop during practice or by making an effort before games, not during them. I am just not convinced that an extra 30 minutes of game time a week will make a fundamental difference in his game.

but hey, it's not my dime. I would like to see them give him the time and then we will know. Worse that could happen is the Raps get a better draft position because of his added minutes, and that's not a bad thing.

[special1]

I want to focus on this particular point as all the other points eventually come down to is Demar a top 5 SG and worth keeping?

Out of your list, Lance, Gordon, Wade, Johnson, Allen, Martin, Oladipo are all in some way worse than Demar when factoring current ability with potential.

In order: Lance has 0.02 points better in TS% than Demar on 11.6 FGA. Demar keeps roughly the same TS% on 18.5 shots. You would have to show me that Lance can maintain his shooting % the same while averaging 7 more shots, in order to prove that Lance is comparable offensively to Demar. Since its easier to get high percentage when you are the 4th option and shooting only the most open shots compared to running the teams offense as the number 1 or 2 option, that is a discrepancy that is important to note.
Per 36, Lance turns it over roughly 30% more than Demar, yet Demar (27% USG) is being used 137% more than Lance (19.7% USG)
If you look at Lances career, he is only now showing some solid play, and only last year did he bring his FG% above .400

Demars advantages: Better scorer (While at the same TS%), better FT shooter, better at handling the ball, better are being a focal point in an offense, better consistency

Eric Gordon: Same slight advantage at TS%, while Demar shoots 38% more shots in a game. Career Turnovers, Eric averages 141% of the TO% of Demar. Demar is 4 inches taller.

Demars advantages: Better scorer (While at same TS%), better FT shooter, throughout his entire career Demar has about 40% less turnovers than Eric. Taller, Younger, 40% Cheaper, doesnt get hurt (Eric averages 52 games per season, Demar averages 80).

Dwayne Wade: Demar has more range than Dwade, scores more at the same TS%, Averages DOUBLE the turnovers than Demar at the same USG%, Dwade gets hurt much more (averages 66 games per season the past 8 seasons), is a career 76% FT shooter, is older and is declining fast.

Demars advantage: Currently better scorer with more versatility including an outside shot and better FT%, 7 years younger, 3 inches taller, turns it over HALF as much, plays on average 14 more games in a season than Wade. Demar is much cheaper.

Joe Johnson: This one is easy, Joe winshares/48 = 0.062, Demar = .124, Double the win share. Same TS%, 37% less shots. Demar averages DOUBLE the steals, Joe is 32, 8 years older than Demar

Demars advantage: Winshare/48, better scoring; including better versatility (better 3pt and FT), Demar averages double the steals. There is really nothing that Joe does better than Demar, they are either the same at something or Demar is much better. Demar is 8 years younger, and MUCH cheaper.

Allen, Martin, Oladipo:
Allen is the only one with a SERIOUS TS% that is better than Demars, but Demar plays a little bit better defense and has more versatility on offense than Allen, who needs plays to be drawn up for him (cant create on his own). The main advantage here is that Demar is 12 years younger than Allen, making him more valuable for the long-run, but I will concede that Allen is fucking godly. Currently though, I would rather Demar, Beal, or even Oladipo over Allen.

Martin is currently playing the best ball of his life, and he played good ball before hand. Still, would you prefer a 30 yearold Martin over Demar? Since Martin averages 63 games in a season for his ENTIRE career, Maybe. I would leave this as debatable.

Oladipo has played well for a rookie, but his TS% is far below Demar (ouch) and has a negative WS/48. His 5.9 TOV per 36 is more than 3 times that of Demars. I will give Oladipo the benefit of the doubt because of the small sample size and because he is a rookie, but Oladipos 3 years younger than Demar is not enough to offset what has been done in the first 12 games. Demar is easily better than Oladipo.


Those (that you have named) that I believe are better than Demar:
Klay, Beal, Harden, Kobe, with Martin is debatable. (in no particular order ofcourse)

Since Kobe and Martin are getting old, it seems that the best SGs for the next 5+ years are: Klay, Beal, Harden, and Demar.
In my opinion, if you have ONE of those, you lock him up.

EDIT: Wanted to put in salaries of the top SGs:
Klay: Rookie contract (wait till he gets an extension to compare with Demars contract)
Beal: Rookie contract
Harden: 15.7M over 5 years
Kobe: 30M expiring
Martin: 6.5M (but used to make 11M before his last extension, good move by the timberwolves on that contract)
Demar: 9.5M

Demar is really cheap compared to that company and so has great long-term value.

Well done sir! I don't know how anyone can read this post and still think negatively when it comes to Demar. Demar is clearly a very good player and still hasn't reached his ceiling.

[special1]

just to know your perspective on Demar's actual impact on games.....Do you realistically think any perceived contender this season will have Demar on their starting lineup?

YES I DO!!! I think many contending teams would LOVE to have Demar. Demar is an up-and-coming star in this league....whether you like it or not. Everytime i watch NBA TV or other broadcasts i always hear them speak VERY HIGHLY of Demar. ONLY our idiotic fans can't see the truth. These are the same people who thought Bargnani was going to be some superstar.

They're so bitter...it's soooo obvious. Tank tank tank ---- right after Bargs goes......interesting plan. If we wanted to tank we should've kept Bargnani!!!! How's New York doing? Yet, Bargs is doing okay.....Wake up!

This team as is - is better than many people predicted (see tankers). There's no way we even come close to bottom 6. So come back to being a true fan and cheer for your team to make the playoffs.

[mcHAPPY]

YES I DO!!! I think many contending teams would LOVE to have Demar. Demar is an up-and-coming star in this league....whether you like it or not. Everytime i watch NBA TV or other broadcasts i always hear them speak VERY HIGHLY of Demar. ONLY our idiotic fans can't see the truth. These are the same people who thought Bargnani was going to be some superstar.

They're so bitter...it's soooo obvious. Tank tank tank ---- right after Bargs goes......interesting plan. If we wanted to tank we should've kept Bargnani!!!! How's New York doing? Yet, Bargs is doing okay.....Wake up!

This team as is - is better than many people predicted (see tankers). There's no way we even come close to bottom 6. So come back to being a true fan and cheer for your team to make the playoffs.

Do I need to go back and dig up your posts about Bargnani again?

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Craiger]

YES I DO!!! I think many contending teams would LOVE to have Demar. Demar is an up-and-coming star in this league....whether you like it or not. Everytime i watch NBA TV or other broadcasts i always hear them speak VERY HIGHLY of Demar. ONLY our idiotic fans can't see the truth. These are the same people who thought Bargnani was going to be some superstar.

They're so bitter...it's soooo obvious. Tank tank tank ---- right after Bargs goes......interesting plan. If we wanted to tank we should've kept Bargnani!!!! How's New York doing? Yet, Bargs is doing okay.....Wake up!

This team as is - is better than many people predicted (see tankers). There's no way we even come close to bottom 6. So come back to being a true fan and cheer for your team to make the playoffs.

Umm haven't the tankers been predicting this team would be mediocre? Aren't they playing slightly less than mediocre ball? So far many of the 'tankers' have been spot on with their assessment of this team.

[Nilanka]

5 wins in 12 tries.

Plan the mutha-flippin' parade!!!!

[special1]

Do I need to go back and dig up your posts about Bargnani again?

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Please do....dig them all up!! Did i say Bargnani was going to be some star??? I said MAYBE we could make it work if we tried a different role (a la 6th man type). You sir keep bringing this silly shit up about me thinking Bargnani was going to be an all-star. OBVIOUSLY i hoped he would turn out to be a good player and as a fan i gave him time. However, you and i both know that there were MANY fans who thought the guy was going to be an all-star. Did you ever read me say something like that??

I'm really glad you responded though, because my post was actually for people like you. As you were, HATER.