Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

[stooley]

So since the stats were so wildly misleading in this thread, I did a little research of my own.

Total rebounding rate seemed like the best way to accurately determine a player's impact on the boards taking the pace of play into account. Numbers can still be skewed by certain tactics, such as if a player is coached to break away or crash the boards every possession, but I digress.

Last year, among SGs who averaged more than 25 minutes per game (more than half of each game) and played in over 40 games, Demar ranked 19th out of 33 in total rebounding rate, directly ahead of Hayward, Afflalo and Klay Thompson. He is ranked behind players like Ray Allen and James Harden, players people don't associate with a dominating rebounding presence.

This year, among all guards (since BR is picky) who average more than 25 minutes per game, Demar's TRR is ranked 40th out of 68. He is not in terrible company here.

Over the past two years, Demar has not shown improvement in his rebounding rate and is slightly below league average for a starting player at his position.

Hopefully, given his athletic gifts and willingness to improve certain aspects of his game, Demar will take a step forward on this front. If he does not, he is not a liability on the boards but also isn't a strength there. If Demar stops improving today, I predict a Kevin Martinesque career for him.

[Axel]

So since the stats were so wildly misleading in this thread, I did a little research of my own.

Total rebounding rate seemed like the best way to accurately determine a player's impact on the boards taking the pace of play into account. Numbers can still be skewed by certain tactics, such as if a player is coached to break away or crash the boards every possession, but I digress.

Last year, among SGs who averaged more than 25 minutes per game (more than half of each game) and played in over 40 games, Demar ranked 19th out of 33 in total rebounding rate, directly ahead of Hayward, Afflalo and Klay Thompson. He is ranked behind players like Ray Allen and James Harden, players people don't associate with a dominating rebounding presence.

This year, among all guards (since BR is picky) who average more than 25 minutes per game, Demar's TRR is ranked 40th out of 68. He is not in terrible company here.

Over the past two years, Demar has not shown improvement in his rebounding rate and is slightly below league average for a starting player at his position.

Hopefully, given his athletic gifts and willingness to improve certain aspects of his game, Demar will take a step forward on this front. If he does not, he is not a liability on the boards but also isn't a strength there. If Demar stops improving today, I predict a Kevin Martinesque career for him.

Got a link for the TRR stuff?

The stats were fine until ESPN decided to filter out half the league.

[p00ka]

DeMar is playing over 38 minutes per game. What are those other players playing? Context.

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

[Axel]

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

What's with the constant bean-counting reference? I've never seen it used to describe basketball so much.

What role, system, etc limitations does Demar have that limit him in rebounding? Our non-existent fast break? Our elite rebounders at every other position?

[stooley]

Got a link for the TRR stuff?

The stats were fine until ESPN decided to filter out half the league.

Last year's:
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstat...&gp=40&mins=25

This year's:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=trb_pct

[Axel]

Last year's:
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstat...&gp=40&mins=25

This year's:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=trb_pct

His TRR numbers from last year (wish they had this year, but alas) is 6.3 but the site says the league average is 6.6, so by definition, below average.

Too bad BR doesn't post "League average" numbers, but 40th isn't impressive.

[Nilanka]

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

What's with the constant bean-counting reference? I've never seen it used to describe basketball so much.

What role, system, etc limitations does Demar have that limit him in rebounding? Our non-existent fast break? Our elite rebounders at every other position?

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

[stooley]

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

I would add that when being compared to only SGs, the most important variables are probably pretty similar in the majority of cases. There may be outliers created by certain coaching styles but we can catch these.

[Axel]

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

But without providing any basis for Demar's context (how does his role limit him from rebounding?) then it's not really adding anything except trying to blanket dismiss all stats as irrelevant.

[p00ka]

What's with the constant bean-counting reference? I've never seen it used to describe basketball so much.

What role, system, etc limitations does Demar have that limit him in rebounding? Our non-existent fast break? Our elite rebounders at every other position?

1. The raptors are in the top half of the league in total rebounding, ahead of such teams as Spurs, Grizzlies, Mavs, Heat.
2. They are 4th in the league in offensive rebounding.
3. Yet offensively, the only reason they are even in games is DeMar carrying the load that others aren't. Maybe the topic should be where the hell is everyone else, not Demar needs to help everyone else more.
4. His rebounding is so far away from the reasons for the loss in this game, it's absurd that it has become the major topic of conversation in a thread about this game.

[Axel]

1. The raptors are in the top half of the league in total rebounding, ahead of such teams as Spurs, Grizzlies, Mavs, Heat.
2. They are 4th in the league in offensive rebounding.
3. Yet offensively, the only reason they are even in games is DeMar carrying the load that others aren't. Maybe the topic should be where the hell is everyone else, not Demar needs to help everyone else more.
4. His rebounding is so far away from the reasons for the loss in this game, it's absurd that it has become the major topic of conversation in a thread about this game.

It hasn't (read the thread from page 19 on at least). It came up because we talked about Demar rebounding the day before the game, and then he has zero rebounds. No one has tried to say that it is all his fault. But as the leader/best player, a certain amount of blame is perfectly fair.

DD has been the best on offence, for a full complaint about Gay's offence please see all the posts over the last 2 weeks.

[p00ka]

But without providing any basis for Demar's context (how does his role limit him from rebounding?) then it's not really adding anything except trying to blanket dismiss all stats as irrelevant.

It's not that stats are irrelevant. They have their place. It's abuse of their extrapolation.

To provide an analogy of sorts, I used to be a very top notch programmer. As software development project manager, I put the best team together I could for projects. Though I get my fingers dirty once in a while and create some code, I assign different roles to different people based on where their skills are best utilized, within the TEAM make-up. Another project manager has a different team make-up and assigns roles differently, including doing a lot more code himself. Does that make him a more conscientious and harder working PM? No, in fact it may point more to him being worse. Different roles, within different teams, using different styles.

If your going to talk about how many minutes a guy plays as some sort of end-all of "context", I'm saying that there are far more significant areas of context than minutes played.

[p00ka]

It hasn't (read the thread from page 19 on at least). It came up because we talked about Demar rebounding the day before the game, and then he has zero rebounds. No one has tried to say that it is all his fault. But as the leader/best player, a certain amount of blame is perfectly fair.

DD has been the best on offence, for a full complaint about Gay's offence please see all the posts over the last 2 weeks.

And KD has ZERO assists last night, in 39 minutes of having the ball in his hands virtually every possession. What's with that guy, hey? 10 assists, 3 assists, 0 assists. If that guy ever develops consistency as a leader of his team,, he might be good!

[stooley]

And KD has ZERO assists last night, in 39 minutes of having the ball in his hands virtually every possession. What's with that guy, hey? 10 assists, 3 assists, 0 assists. If that guy ever develops consistency as a leader of his team,, he might be good!

You focus exclusively on tearing down arguments. Whether you do that well or not, I won't comment on.

Do you think Demar is a good rebounder? Do you think he is a bad rebounder? Why?

[mcHAPPY]

You focus exclusively on tearing down arguments. Whether you do that well or not, I won't comment on.

Do you think Demar is a good rebounder? Do you think he is a bad rebounder? Why?

Good luck with a straight answer.