TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

[Shrub]

Yup.
Spot
on.

Also, I bet some of those thoughts came directly from this forum.
Didn't they Bill?

[p00ka]

Is there any evidence that these so called "magic men" from the draft will get us where we need to go?

Yes. Years of NBA evidence prove that the best players in the league all came from the draft. Many of them from a top 6 pick.

Well, you didn't answer his question, but most best players come from top of the draft? Well, doh, no kidding. (yeah, I'm pissy with those that are pissy with me) In the vein of such a simplistic response, but more direct relation to the question, "years of NBA evidence prove that" the majority of those players move on to other teams before winning, so how does that "get us where we need"? (the question)

That being said, the on-going problem in this discussion is what "tanking" really means, and it means different things to different people, so it will forever be an argument. I would add the the OP questions speaks to the "Ant-Tank Movement". I don't think I've seen any real "movement" of anti-tankers. The "movement" is that which "tankers" have created, and the so called anti-tankers have pretty much just individually tried countering the arguments.

Hey, EVERYONE with an IQ higher than 80 knows changes need to be made, but where this "anti-tanker" has issues is supporting the basic original definition of "tanking". The word, in relation to sport, was coined to describe "the act of giving up a match or "throwing it away", losing intentionally or not competing". No matter how someone tries to cloak it as "proper rebuild", moves to intentionally lose to chase the draft lottery, whether the moves come from players, coaches, or management, cheats the game and doesn't work. And the proposal that many support, to dump everybody but JV, is doing exactly that.

UM is not stupid. He knows he needs to make changes to accomplish the goals we'd all like to see. BUT, one can't just flick a switch and get overnight value for the entire effing team. I trust that he's going to move players, WHEN he's able to get wise value from them, and if he can, though I'd be on board if he can just unload Gay's contract without taking back an equally bad one back.

[peanutwoozle]

Yes. Years of NBA evidence prove that the best players in the league all came from the draft. Many of them from a top 6 pick.

yet it also proves the inverse.

[Axel]

Well, you didn't answer his question, but most best players come from top of the draft? Well, doh, no kidding. (yeah, I'm pissy with those that are pissy with me) In the vein of such a simplistic response, but more direct relation to the question, "years of NBA evidence prove that" the majority of those players move on to other teams before winning, so how does that "get us where we need"? (the question)

That being said, the on-going problem in this discussion is what "tanking" really means, and it means different things to different people, so it will forever be an argument. I would add the the OP questions speaks to the "Ant-Tank Movement". I don't think I've seen any real "movement" of anti-tankers. The "movement" is that which "tankers" have created, and the so called anti-tankers have pretty much just individually tried countering the arguments.

Hey, EVERYONE with an IQ higher than 80 knows changes need to be made, but where this "anti-tanker" has issues is supporting the basic original definition of "tanking". The word, in relation to sport, was coined to describe "the act of giving up a match or "throwing it away", losing intentionally or not competing". No matter how someone tries to cloak it as "proper rebuild", moves to intentionally lose to chase the draft lottery, whether the moves come from players, coaches, or management, cheats the game and doesn't work. And the proposal that many support, to dump everybody but JV, is doing exactly that.

UM is not stupid. He knows he needs to make changes to accomplish the goals we'd all like to see. BUT, one can't just flick a switch and get overnight value for the entire effing team. I trust that he's going to move players, WHEN he's able to get wise value from them, and if he can, though I'd be on board if he can just unload Gay's contract without taking back an equally bad one back.

You find my response inadequate but PeanutWoozle said yesterday that he thinks it is a safer bet to be lower in the draft where the talent discrepancy is greater.

The only evidence that the draft is a benefit is the years of evidence which he seems to be ignoring.

[Masai Ujiri]

yet it also proves the inverse.

No it doesn't. Just going by ESPN's top 25 rankings (not saying these are the actual 25 best players, but just to give an idea of how wrong you are).

LeBron - #1 Overall
Durant - #2 Overall
Paul - #4 Overall
Harden - #3 Overall
Westbrook - #4 Overall
Curry - #7 Overall
Dwight - #1 Overall
Kyrie - #1 Overall
Rose - #1 Overall
Marc Gasol - #48 Overall
Love - #5 Overall
Parker - #29 Overall
George - #10 Overall
Griffin - #1 Overall
Melo - #3 Overall
Duncan - #1 Overall
Aldridge - #2 Overall
Wade - #5 Overall
Horford - #3 Overall
DWill - #3 Overall
Wall - #1 Overall
Hibbert - #17 Overall
Noah - #9 Overall
Bosh - #4 Overall
Kobe - #13 Overall

So out of the NBA's top 25 players (arguably), 3 were drafted outside of the lottery. And of those 3, maybe one (Parker) of them has been, is, or ever will be the best player on a championship contender (ie. a superstar, franchise type of player).

It's not an accident. A staggering EIGHTEEN of the league's top 25 players (72%) were drafted top 5.

[p00ka]

You find my response inadequate but PeanutWoozle said yesterday that he thinks it is a safer bet to be lower in the draft where the talent discrepancy is greater.

The only evidence that the draft is a benefit is the years of evidence which he seems to be ignoring.

If you were responding to some other post, perhaps you should clarify that? Just saying. The simple fact is that the post you quoted posed a question that you didn't address. As I said, I'm in total agreement that most best players come from top of the draft. Nobody denies that, but it didn't answer the question you quoted.

[Superjudge]

Well, you didn't answer his question, but most best players come from top of the draft? Well, doh, no kidding. (yeah, I'm pissy with those that are pissy with me) In the vein of such a simplistic response, but more direct relation to the question, "years of NBA evidence prove that" the majority of those players move on to other teams before winning, so how does that "get us where we need"? (the question)

That being said, the on-going problem in this discussion is what "tanking" really means, and it means different things to different people, so it will forever be an argument. I would add the the OP questions speaks to the "Ant-Tank Movement". I don't think I've seen any real "movement" of anti-tankers. The "movement" is that which "tankers" have created, and the so called anti-tankers have pretty much just individually tried countering the arguments.

Hey, EVERYONE with an IQ higher than 80 knows changes need to be made, but where this "anti-tanker" has issues is supporting the basic original definition of "tanking". The word, in relation to sport, was coined to describe "the act of giving up a match or "throwing it away", losing intentionally or not competing". No matter how someone tries to cloak it as "proper rebuild", moves to intentionally lose to chase the draft lottery, whether the moves come from players, coaches, or management, cheats the game and doesn't work. And the proposal that many support, to dump everybody but JV, is doing exactly that.

UM is not stupid. He knows he needs to make changes to accomplish the goals we'd all like to see. BUT, one can't just flick a switch and get overnight value for the entire effing team. I trust that he's going to move players, WHEN he's able to get wise value from them, and if he can, though I'd be on board if he can just unload Gay's contract without taking back an equally bad one back.

don't hate the player, hate the game. Hire an idealist and die.

get with is son, this is pro ball, not HS. If you can't piss with the big dogs, sat outta the tall grass...and stuff

[Axel]

If you were responding to some other post, perhaps you should clarify that? Just saying. The simple fact is that the post you quoted posed a question that you didn't address. As I said, I'm in total agreement that most best players come from top of the draft. Nobody denies that, but it didn't answer the question you quoted.

I'm on my phone so I can't link to everything peawooz said yesterday. If it makes it confusing sorry but the dude been trolling on multiple threads for days. Go to his profile and read his posts if you want full context.

My response does address the question posed. Question: How do you know that this current crop of players will be able to lead their teams to the playoffs?
Answer: NBA history shows where the best players come from and what they accomplish. It's not a detailed answer but it is enough for a troll question. How does he know that this draft won't?

I got no issue with you pooka. I disagree with 90% of what you say but I respect that you actually read peoples posts before trying to argue with them. There are far too many posters who don't read the content and just argue because of the name of the poster.

[Primer]

5 game losing stream into this:

Raptors upcoming schedule: Sun 12/8 @Lakers | Tue 12/10 Spurs | Fri 12/13 76ers | Sat 12/14 @Bulls | Wed 12/18 Bobcats | Fri 12/20 @Mavericks | Sun 12/22 @Thunder | Mon 12/23 @Spurs

LET THE TANK ROLL!

We could easily lose every single one of these games. I think we take one, from either the Lakers or 76ers.

We are on the second most impressive losing streak in the NBA, and are only 2 games out of a top 3 lotto odds. We could easily have the 2nd worst record in the NBA by Christmas. It's kinda pathetic that no trades were needed to get this team into tank mode. I expect to see a lot of guys moved after Dec. 15th and Casey fired around then too. For now Masai should just stay the course, as I think we're going to lose the majority of the games in December.

[p00ka]

don't hate the player, hate the game. Hire an idealist and die.

get with is son, this is pro ball, not HS. If you can't piss with the big dogs, sat outta the tall grass...and stuff

Unless your dick has shriveled down to a button, and you walk around wearing a piss bag, you got no business calling me "son", grandpa, but have you lost track of your meds box today, or do they not help the dementia much anymore?

[Jamshid]

Great Analysis. UM work will begin in 8 days and his focus should be moving DD,Gay, Lowry, Amir Johnson and getting back draft picks ... He does that this year and he will get a A+++ from me and 85% of Raptor fans.

[mcHAPPY]

He's a hater. Rudy and Demar are the only way the Raps can really, truly be saved. They should shoot more because they're all-stars. They love Toronto, and they're young and improving, and they have reasonable contracts. If not they wouldn't be playing so many minutes.

lol

Sort of puts things in perspective.

[Primer]

"Is there a better stealth tanking asset than Dwane Casey? "

So true, so true.

It takes a specially bad coach to blow a 27 point lead in one quarter. Casey almost let that loss get away from him. I think he learned his lesson from his first year where he blew too many losses late in the season.

[Axel]

I agree with you.

If I didn't know better I'd swear a lot of posters have built their house directly on the beach.

Location location location

[psrs1]

He's a hater. Rudy and Demar are the only way the Raps can really, truly be saved. They should shoot more because they're all-stars. They love Toronto, and they're young and improving, and they have reasonable contracts. If not they wouldn't be playing so many minutes.

'Reasonable contracts' really?