Debate settled......

[Masai Ujiri]

He actually is a below average athlete by NBA SG standards. Sorry to be the barer of such obvious news. Except his leaping ability, that's actually good, but pretty much every other category he is below average.

Wanting to be here isn't a really good basketball skill. Lot's of player will want to be here if we win games.

Ya he has heart, but he isn't a leader, nor does he play with passion on the defensive end or on the offensive end (when he doesn't have the ball)

To me that's not enough to build the team around him.

If we are looking to build a team around a prototypical player mold, the perfect player would be an uber-talented Amir Johnson type.

Bold: ... lol

Btw nobody wants to build the team around DeMar. He's not a cornerstone, and he's not paid cornerstone money. That being said, what he IS is a great complementary player and 2nd or 3rd scoring option on a contending team. There's no reason to move a guy like that at age 24 unless you're getting a haul back. You don't actively look to ship him out.

[lewro]

What half tank? We're only a month into the season. No reason to think Ujiri's done playing. Can't gut the team with one move.

I can't see to well, is that nilanka or doug smith? seems like you're using your papers not for writing but for rolling doobies. not likely to trade every player in one transaction but i think cathal kelly was right when he said trade lowry and the chicken has no head (or maybe he said snake? whatever). this was pre-vasquez, of course. so it's not gutting every player but if you remove the heart than blood cant get pumped to the guts and your stomach eats itself.

rudy was the best tanker! so the best! it's one thing to watch (insert any shitty sf) suck, it's another thing to watch gay think he is the best player on the court, get paid like it too and suck just the same but worse bc he makes everyone else worse and they hate him for it but he won't let them prove it with the boxscores! especially when gay faces someone who is actually good like lebron. schadenfreude!

[OldSkoolCool]

Bold: ... lol

Btw nobody wants to build the team around DeMar. He's not a cornerstone, and he's not paid cornerstone money. That being said, what he IS is a great complementary player and 2nd or 3rd scoring option on a contending team. There's no reason to move a guy like that at age 24 unless you're getting a haul back. You don't actively look to ship him out.

Ignorance is bliss I guess. If you want to see an athlete, watch someone like Ross run the floor vs how DD runs the floor

You're right, he's not a cornerstone player but instead a 6th man player. The Raps will never play him as a sixth man, plus they don't need a sixth man right now, those are the players that come after we have an established core. At this point, he doesn't fit into the direction of the team, so it is best to trade him for picks/prospects that DO.

[Masai Ujiri]

You keep saying how he doesn't fit into the direction of the team.

WHAT IS THE DIRECTION OF THE TEAM?
HOW DOES HE NOT FIT INTO THAT?

[delman21]

So according to this thread if we are to land in the top 5 we get a superior athlete, who will be all nba in 2 years and take us to the promised land. That is crazy, we could have top 5 this year and next and still wouldn't make the playoffs, by dumping the whole roster. I bet if we have 5 picks this year we still don't make the playoffs. No matter what happens, you herd MU talk about the T words in his conference, I don't think that's the direction. This moves makes us better allowing the young guys to play and see where we stand. From what I see coming in there is potential and lots of it, but remember these are kids not proven college stars, most are making waves cause they have incredible talent, most are having break out season which is good. But I remember a GUY by the name of Glenn Robinson who went #1 after housing the whole NCAA for a few years, and he was way more dominate that any of these guys coming out besides Chris Webber. Ended up being 20 ppg and a good pro. Not great for how much he dominated in the college ranks. I actually have tape of a lot of the era and he and fab five we above there time.

A guy can drop 40 ppg in college and then some bench player can make that player look average. The strength is the biggest issue, with all except Randle I believe, then he still has deficiencies, no jumper along with smart etc. They all have their flaws, but I don't see dumping everyone being the option. I think we will continue to fight for the playoffs, and acquire as we go. Giving us major flexibility for the offseason and a few extra, late pics coming to have the ability to sweeten the deal for Andrew. Which we all know is the major priority for this team and management.

It kills me when everyone says there is like 5 generational talents coming in this years draft, I don't believe this. There is only one kids with the potential of a generational talent, being wiggins and his superior athleticism, something you cant get from practice, which is why he will remain high on all draft boards, regardless of where he finishes in stats. Everything else in basketball can be acquired via coaching staff and hard work, but to be able to coast like a deer, and then fly above everyone, and not even break a sweat doing so that's period and by far generational talent. Not someone dropping 20 a game, BIG Dogg Robinson is an example of this type of thing. he was heads and shoulders, offensively , above everyone else, was more offensively polished, sounds like Jabari to me. I am in no way shape or form saying these guys can become good great or even superstars. But athleticism can make u the #1 pic alone, and we know there is only one in the class of prospects that has been given that gift.

[delman21]

OH and thank goodness he Canadian and wants to come here, but he alone will not make us the team everyone thinks. There are other pieces needed.
So to start 5 rookies who tore up the NCAA is what everyone wants, but this alone will take close to 3-4 years of playing together, before making any noise. And then how do we keep them all, everyone things winning is the answer for ego, not happening in the nba sorry. Guys like mike and what not that play their whole career for a team are few and far between in todays game. And even with the new CBA look at what coangelo did, he signed landry to an enormous deal so the NYK could not compete in FA, cause the wanted to match.

generational talent versus team building, even LeBron couldn't do it alone, he had to go elsewhere, who is to say our stars don't?

[Axel]

I think everyone is crazy for thinking we get rid of dd. Yes this draft is loaded with potential stars, potential, the funny thing is the draft combine and all these stupid formulas for everything under the sun besides the stats they put up is crazy, and it allows a way for guys who have never played ball other that nba 2 k a say.

The one thing that can't be measured is heart, we got it with dd, he has shown how he is willing to work, shut the critics up and carry on.

There would be plenty of teams that want him but why should we give him up. We can get another pic for what we have left to trade, prob mil or chi town. But to trade dd for a rookie who's heart can't be measured until about his 5th year, sound familiar.

The only kid we get in this draft that stays is possibly Exum or Wiggins. Both international players, so all the hyp e of landing 2 top 10 picks is crazy. I hope trades are made to get into the playoffs, and get pics as well. I am sure the guys are sick and tired of hearing there no good or trade them for a chance and I say that gingerly. That all you can read about here. We got to support these guys and want to keep them or they will bolt. We do have good pieces and if we were to trade dd I would hope he would become an allstar and throw it back in our faces for not supporting him. Like every other good athletic wing we have had.

Support and move forward not tank for a chance at someone who is still 19 needs abot 10-20 lbs of muscle and strength. There's no telling where we might be in 2 years but having 2 lottery pics here wont be playoffs next year and then when we finally make the playoffs in 3 years we will be going through all this again to see if we can keep someone, when we have a good one here and his ceiling is about to get higher. DD may not be the best everywhere, but he has 2 rare skills or blessing that most rookies have to develop.
1. HEART AND ATHLETICISM( sick athleticism)
2. HE WANTS TO BE HERE

That should be alone enough for us to support him and stop asking for him to be traded for some dam pic, we will be kicking our ass in 2 years if he is gone when he comes back and drops like 25-30 on us in a quick and efficient manner like he always does. The athleticism is what shows the ceiling, so no matter what happens Wiggins will always have the highest ceiling because he has the athleticism you cant train for and dd has it as well. Watch him run they say he is lazy or coasting but they just run faster and jump higher and don't have to try to do it, that's what makes guys #1 pics and that alone. You can develop skills but not being a crazy athlete, that's something your born with

So if I'm reading this long meandering post correctly, we shouldn't trade DD because of heart, athleticism and he wants to be here?

Heart - lots of players have it. Reggie Evans, Hansbrough, Acy, Matt Bonner - all great heart guys, but heart is only a small part of the equation. You use heart to separate the KGs and the Kwame's of the world, but you don't build around it.

Athleticism - Demar is a very good athlete, but there are so many players who are equally good athletes. Darius Miles was a fantastic athlete but you'd be crazy to build a team around him. Wiggins, Exum, etc are all exceptional athletes too. One GM said Exum was a "generational talent". You think anyone is saying that about DD?

He wants to be here - The ultimate complex for Raps fans. Some are so scared of losing talented players, that they actually use "wants to be here" as a characteristic to build a team over things like, talent. There are tons of cliches that exist for a reason: Talent wins games. If you build it, they will come. To be the man, wooo, you gotta beat the man (ok that last one was off-track ).

Your final paragraph has a fairly laughable comment (bolded). Demar will "drop 25-30 on us in a quick efficient manner like he always does" I think you need to review what "efficient" scoring is, cause Demar does not always score efficiently. He has had some good games lately, but let's not forget the last few years either.

[OldSkoolCool]

You keep saying how he doesn't fit into the direction of the team.

WHAT IS THE DIRECTION OF THE TEAM?
HOW DOES HE NOT FIT INTO THAT?

The direction is to rebuild through the draft. I don't think DD can deal with any more losing, for starters.

My future direction for the team is a very strong system, with above average defenders at all of the wing positions and 1 big being a good defender. 2 of the wing players must be proficient at running the screen and role and/or GREAT at creating for the other players. The other wing must be a very good three point shooter and defender and used as such. Does DD fit either of those roles?? No, he is a sixth man. Which is one of the last things that is added when building a team.

Pretty much there is nothing that we want right now from DD. Maybe in the 2015/16 season he would have a role...but what about until then? Just let him keep losing games and frustrating the hell out of a player that has been good to the Raps? That's the kind of thing that makes a guy want to cut bait and run...Trading him makes the most sense in terms of rebuilding. Period.

[Axel]

The direction is to rebuild through the draft. I don't think DD can deal with any more losing, for starters.

My future direction for the team is a very strong system, with above average defenders at all of the wing positions and 1 big being a good defender. 2 of the wing players must be proficient at running the screen and role and/or GREAT at creating for the other players. The other wing must be a very good three point shooter and defender and used as such. Does DD fit either of those roles?? No, he is a sixth man. Which is one of the last things that is added when building a team.

Pretty much there is nothing that we want right now from DD. Maybe in the 2015/16 season he would have a role...but what about until then? Just let him keep losing games and frustrating the hell out of a player that has been good to the Raps? That's the kind of thing that makes a guy want to cut bait and run...Trading him makes the most sense in terms of rebuilding. Period.

I know a lot of people say that DD is better suited for a 6th man role but I really doubt it.

Look at the best 6th men in the league over recent years:
Manu Ginobili
Jamal Crawford
James Harden (in OKC)
Lamar Odom

All of these guys can create scoring chance. Odom, as a point forward, was able to score and facilitate for the 2nd unit. Crawford can create scoring chances with the ball in his hands. Manu and Harden are essentially scoring guards in their 6th man roles, both create off the dribble for themselves and their teammates.

Can Demar create his own shot? Not really. He is best suited as an off-ball guy, catching off a screen or flare. Does Demar facilitate an offence? No, he can play within one, but he can't run one.

[OldSkoolCool]

Can Demar create his own shot? Not really. He is best suited as an off-ball guy, catching off a screen or flare. Does Demar facilitate an offence? No, he can play within one, but he can't run one.

Ok...so say again why you want to keep him as a part of a Championship team? The only player that has ever had a major role like that and won a Championship is Rip Hamilton, who was a part of the 1% team.

And again, I go back to my "model" (because rebuilding without a plan is stupid), you say he isn't a facilitator, so that leaves 1 position on the wing left...which is where I want a 3 and D specialist. Is that DD? No. And since he isn't a sixth man...again no fit.

And we are going through a rebuild...do we want to force him to be a part of another 2 years of being a shitty team? If I was DD I wouldn't want to be. So trade him, we get our future assets, he gets to be a part of a win-now team. Both sides win and go home happy. That's good management.

[special1]

So if I'm reading this long meandering post correctly, we shouldn't trade DD because of heart, athleticism and he wants to be here?

Heart - lots of players have it. Reggie Evans, Hansbrough, Acy, Matt Bonner - all great heart guys, but heart is only a small part of the equation. You use heart to separate the KGs and the Kwame's of the world, but you don't build around it.

Athleticism - Demar is a very good athlete, but there are so many players who are equally good athletes. Darius Miles was a fantastic athlete but you'd be crazy to build a team around him. Wiggins, Exum, etc are all exceptional athletes too. One GM said Exum was a "generational talent". You think anyone is saying that about DD?

He wants to be here - The ultimate complex for Raps fans. Some are so scared of losing talented players, that they actually use "wants to be here" as a characteristic to build a team over things like, talent. There are tons of cliches that exist for a reason: Talent wins games. If you build it, they will come. To be the man, wooo, you gotta beat the man (ok that last one was off-track ).

Your final paragraph has a fairly laughable comment (bolded). Demar will "drop 25-30 on us in a quick efficient manner like he always does" I think you need to review what "efficient" scoring is, cause Demar does not always score efficiently. He has had some good games lately, but let's not forget the last few years either.

Oh you guys will NEVER forget the last few years.... Really, thats the only negative argument you usually bring to the table when it comes to Demar.

A few examples?

We say he is our best player right now and you laugh.....we laugh as well, because we know its true.
We say he's improved over all areas and you say marginally....We laugh at your hate.
We say he's a good athelete and you say he isn't OR maybe you say he is and name a scrub.....we laugh again.
We say he's only 24 and hasn't reached his ceiling.....you said he wouldn't improve and you wanted him traded last summer (while his value was at its peak remember?) ....still laughing at you guys from the summer.

We say BUT he has heart.....you say thats unimportant.....we laugh again.
We say he isn't a #1 option and is more suited for a #2 or 3 option....you say we should trade him regardless.

That pretty much sums it up right? Jokes all around.

[Chr1s1anL]

So according to this thread if we are to land in the top 5 we get a superior athlete, who will be all nba in 2 years and take us to the promised land. That is crazy, we could have top 5 this year and next and still wouldn't make the playoffs, by dumping the whole roster. I bet if we have 5 picks this year we still don't make the playoffs. No matter what happens, you herd MU talk about the T words in his conference, I don't think that's the direction. This moves makes us better allowing the young guys to play and see where we stand. From what I see coming in there is potential and lots of it, but remember these are kids not proven college stars, most are making waves cause they have incredible talent, most are having break out season which is good. But I remember a GUY by the name of Glenn Robinson who went #1 after housing the whole NCAA for a few years, and he was way more dominate that any of these guys coming out besides Chris Webber. Ended up being 20 ppg and a good pro. Not great for how much he dominated in the college ranks. I actually have tape of a lot of the era and he and fab five we above there time.

A guy can drop 40 ppg in college and then some bench player can make that player look average. The strength is the biggest issue, with all except Randle I believe, then he still has deficiencies, no jumper along with smart etc. They all have their flaws, but I don't see dumping everyone being the option. I think we will continue to fight for the playoffs, and acquire as we go. Giving us major flexibility for the offseason and a few extra, late pics coming to have the ability to sweeten the deal for Andrew. Which we all know is the major priority for this team and management.

It kills me when everyone says there is like 5 generational talents coming in this years draft, I don't believe this. There is only one kids with the potential of a generational talent, being wiggins and his superior athleticism, something you cant get from practice, which is why he will remain high on all draft boards, regardless of where he finishes in stats. Everything else in basketball can be acquired via coaching staff and hard work, but to be able to coast like a deer, and then fly above everyone, and not even break a sweat doing so that's period and by far generational talent. Not someone dropping 20 a game, BIG Dogg Robinson is an example of this type of thing. he was heads and shoulders, offensively , above everyone else, was more offensively polished, sounds like Jabari to me. I am in no way shape or form saying these guys can become good great or even superstars. But athleticism can make u the #1 pic alone, and we know there is only one in the class of prospects that has been given that gift.

+1,000,000


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Axel]

Ok...so say again why you want to keep him as a part of a Championship team? The only player that has ever had a major role like that and won a Championship is Rip Hamilton, who was a part of the 1% team.

And again, I go back to my "model" (because rebuilding without a plan is stupid), you say he isn't a facilitator, so that leaves 1 position on the wing left...which is where I want a 3 and D specialist. Is that DD? No. And since he isn't a sixth man...again no fit.

And we are going through a rebuild...do we want to force him to be a part of another 2 years of being a shitty team? If I was DD I wouldn't want to be. So trade him, we get our future assets, he gets to be a part of a win-now team. Both sides win and go home happy. That's good management.

Oh I never said keep him as part of a Championship team (perhaps you have me confused with another poster?). I've been quite ok with trading Demar since the off-season. He's not in the Gay/Lowry must trade category, but he's in the Amir category of possibly to maximize assets.

I don't know where/if Demar can fit with a Championship team, but based on his skill-set, I don't think he can thrive as a 6th man. He can be a second unit scorer with a good distributor at the PG position, but his reliance on others is what separates him from the really good 6th man players in the NBA.

[Axel]

Oh you guys will NEVER forget the last few years.... Really, thats the only negative argument you usually bring to the table when it comes to Demar.

A few examples?

We say he is our best player right now and you laugh.....we laugh as well, because we know its true.
We say he's improved over all areas and you say marginally....We laugh at your hate.
We say he's a good athelete and you say he isn't OR maybe you say he is and name a scrub.....we laugh again.
We say he's only 24 and hasn't reached his ceiling.....you said he wouldn't improve and you wanted him traded last summer (while his value was at its peak remember?) ....still laughing at you guys from the summer.

We say BUT he has heart.....you say thats unimportant.....we laugh again.
We say he isn't a #1 option and is more suited for a #2 or 3 option....you say we should trade him regardless.

That pretty much sums it up right? Jokes all around.

You shouldn't forget the past, it helps prevent repeating the same mistakes over again. And that is far from the only negative argument about Demar, but if you aren't willing to read the comments then you are very likely to miss the points.

When/where did I laugh at Demar being called our best player right now? In fact, I've said it because it is true. Very sad, but true. http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ors-112/page23 - Post #444 - exact quote "Demar is the best player on this team which is the sad state of affairs we find ourselves in."

You say he's improved over all areas, yet there is no evidence to support that. He's played well lately, but he needs to continue to score well over a much longer stretch and still doesn't provide much in any other categories.

He's a good athlete, but athleticism doesn't make an NBA player. There are lots of guys with great athleticism.

Darius Miles isn't exactly a no name scrub, he was the #3 pick in 2000. History is important.

If you want to build your team around heart, then go for it. I'll build mine around talent and we'll see who wins.

Demar's scoring role is fairly irrelevant. You have to look at the long term when determining championships. If we maximize every asset other than DD, is he still going to be a part of the equation when we are actually a contender, or is he going to be a 30 year old SG who's looking for a final big pay-day?

[OldSkoolCool]

Oh you guys will NEVER forget the last few years.... Really, thats the only negative argument you usually bring to the table when it comes to Demar.

A few examples?

We say he is our best player right now and you laugh.....we laugh as well, because we know its true.
We say he's improved over all areas and you say marginally....We laugh at your hate.
We say he's a good athelete and you say he isn't OR maybe you say he is and name a scrub.....we laugh again.
We say he's only 24 and hasn't reached his ceiling.....you said he wouldn't improve and you wanted him traded last summer (while his value was at its peak remember? ....still laughing at you guys from the summer.

We say BUT he has heart.....you say thats unimportant.....we laugh again.
We say he isn't a #1 option and is more suited for a #2 or 3 option....you say we should trade him regardless.

That pretty much sums it up right? Jokes all around.

-Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it

-why do you say he is our best player then? Don't say he is our best player then if you also think that's laughable
-He has improved only marginally. This is backed up by both the eye test and statistically. I can't help you with one of those things, but the other can be found on any number of basketball statistics websites
-He is average at best. Just because he can jump, doesn't mean he is a great athlete. He often is beat every night by faster players. Yes he may be stronger, but he usually get pushed around anyways
-5th season in the NBA. He is pretty much at his ceiling. History supports this, unless you think that DD is that 1%
-His value is now at its peak, and still want him traded.

-pretty much all NBA players love basketball and take the game to heart. If they didn't they probably wouldn't work hard enough to become NBA talents at basketball. Please stop using this as a selling feature, it is non-unique
-He doesn't fit into the future orientation of the team. That's why we want to trade him. I like the guy, he has been a favorite that I always wanted to become very good...but I am also more tired of supporting a losing team and think that DD can net us the best set of prospects/players so he is a good player to trade to improve the team. The championships are my end game. What's yours?

-that pretty much sums it up right? Jokes all around this circular argument: We say he isn't that good and factually back it up, you guys counter with non-factual arguments and with things that have no relation to on-court performance, rinse and repeat.