Debate settled......

[Chr1s1anL]

Debate settled......

Even after the interview I don't think Massai is T word.
If he wanted to lose more games wouldn't it of been better to get Jimmer instead of Vasquez ?

[Nilanka]

Sometimes I feel like it's the by-product of Toronto having sports fans that grow up watching the Leafs. Diminishes the smarts of casual sports fans, as they are possibly the best example of a treadmill team in any sport. Even the Bucks have won a championship more recently than them.

They just throw together a team that gives fans enough reason to cheer by fighting on the fringes of the playoffs year after year. And fans start to believe that any scrappy treadmill team which is light years away from true contention are just "a couple of pieces away" or some such, because of years of being sold such a shitty product with so much spin.

You can forgive Queaf fans for thinking so because it's fairly common for lower seeds to advance in the NHL playoffs. Stanley cups have been won by riding a hot goalie through 16 wins.

Basketball is just a different beast altogether.

[iblastoff]

Even after the interview I don't think Massai is T word.
If he wanted to lose more games wouldn't it of been better to get Jimmer instead of Vasquez ?

it isn't about just losing games. as said many times, its about asset accumulation and having viable trade pieces with as well.

[stretch]

Vasquez could be the back up point guard moving forward.

[Axel]

Vasquez could be the back up point guard moving forward.

Meh, he's a RFA but what's his worth? If we draft a PG in the first round, I'd probably stick with Stone as the back-up. I don't expect Vasquez to survive the trade deadline in Toronto.

[S.R.]

it isn't about just losing games. as said many times, its about asset accumulation and having viable trade pieces with as well.

This message just doesn't seem to get through.

It's about building for long term success and giving future, sustainable success more weight than immediate, low-ceiling success. If the former comes at the expense of the latter, then so be it. Your goal is winning basketball, but dramatic roster changes come at a cost. That's the basic reality of operating within the CBA and a lottery draft system.

[Uncle_Si]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Vasquez stick around for the full year. This year is about development. JV specifically, Vasquez is a Good PnR PG. Makes sense to me....not to mention by all accounts he's a good guy in the locker room, competitive. sounds like the kind of guy you'd like on a rebuild. Plus he's an awful defender which is great! JV will have to improve on defense to make up for all the blow bys and as a result we will lose lose lose

[thead]

part of the asset value of Patrick Patterson and Greivis Vasquez, are the bird rights, and potential sign and trade partners.

[Axel]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Vasquez stick around for the full year. This year is about development. JV specifically, Vasquez is a Good PnR PG. Makes sense to me....not to mention by all accounts he's a good guy in the locker room, competitive. sounds like the kind of guy you'd like on a rebuild. Plus he's an awful defender which is great! JV will have to improve on defense to make up for all the blow bys and as a result we will lose lose lose

He's an asset but is he worth re-signing? His PnR game and good attributes you mentioned are all good for his trade value as well.

[stretch]

I'm biased being a fan of Calderon and Vasquez is putting up Calderon type numbers at a much lower price.

[white men can't jump]

You can forgive Queaf fans for thinking so because it's fairly common for lower seeds to advance in the NHL playoffs. Stanley cups have been won by riding a hot goalie through 16 wins.

Basketball is just a different beast altogether.

While it is possible to win as a low seed in hockey, it's hardly easy. I mean, it's easier in ALL other major sports apart from basketball. But that doesn't make it likely. The LA Kings are the first team to do it since the 1948-49 Leafs (ironically). And the only other team to even MAKE a finals as an 8th seed was Edmonton a few years ago. It is not a common event at all. Teams should still aim for the top of the conference in terms of building a championship level team.

But because that slim chance exists, and many Leafs fans have lost all perspective, it makes it acceptable to them to have a fringe playoff team because they think the hope they have is real, when it's much closer to false. So in the end, you kind of made my point. Because hockey is a bit easier to do well as an low seed, and because that's all the Leafs have been for so long, the fanbase is totally delusional.

[white men can't jump]

I'm biased being a fan of Calderon and Vasquez is putting up Calderon type numbers at a much lower price.

Except he turns it over more. He's not quite as good as Calderon with that level of control. And he's not as good a shooter. And he's about as bad a defender, but he's got better size there.

[stretch]

The Rockets won in '95 as a sixth seed in the west.

[Nilanka]

The Rockets won in '95 as a sixth seed in the west.

It helps when you have one of the 50 greatest players of all time leading the charge

I wonder where DeRozan is on the all time list. 3,852 maybe?

[p00ka]

Unbelievable. Every local sports writer is writing about the tank (Grange, Kelly, etc.). Every national basketball writer is writing about the tank (Stein, Lowe, etc.). Rudy Gay is saying things like "We all knew it was gonna happen; just the timing was a surprise." And there are STILL at least 9 fans in here who "still believe!" Congratulations for considering yourself optimists and "real fans" - you're only optimists in the sense that a man who just drove his car off a cliff believes he has finally learned to fly. Reality = irrelevant.

See you after the next big trade.

LOL!

Tanking is for losers and fairweathers....

....and also for Masai Ujiri.

lmao, but maybe one should wait until further moves before getting snotty and pounding one's chest. Amazing how some are so stuck on stu............ um stuck on their tank plans that they read stuff into MU's words and action that aren't there.

In this deal alone, there is absolutely nothing that fits into any scenario I've seen touted here as a tank plan. In general it's been stated dozens, if not hundreds, of times that the whole tank "plan" is:

1. Unload what talent there is, except JV, for prospects and picks. Neither of which was done with this trade. Neither Salmons or Hayes can possibly be called prospects. Patterson may have been considered one at some point, but if the tankers think DD isn't a prospect worth keeping at barely 24, Patterson at 5 months older is even much less developed. Vasquez, at almost 27 (and older than Amir btw, is Jose-lite with much less of a 3 pt shot.
Unloading Gray and Acy hardly fits in with unloading talent either.

2. Get worse over short term to enable getting better long term.
Hmmmm, MU got rid of the consensus team killer, between his very high TO rate, incredibly bad decision making, and historically bad shooting efficiency, a very good argument can be made that this move makes the better!
- whether that 1 game with out him is short-lived or not, it would only be guessing by anybody, but we saw more ball movement and more playmaking, and more use of all talents on the floor, than any game this year. That can hardly be seen as getting worse.
- Vasquez, despite his weaknesses, especially defense, is an instant upgrade on our backup PG spot. He ADDS to the ball movement and set up teammates concept we saw in LA.
- Hayes, an experienced and very savvy defensive big, is certainly an upgrade over street cloths wearing Acy.

So, we got rid of a toxic "talent" that was playing very poorly, and got upgrades in two areas. How exactly is that getting worse? (to get better later)

What this trade is?

1. unloading a crippling salary, especially with the uncertainty of whether he was what he was going to do with his upcoming option, for a handful of much more moveable contracts, all but one ending at the end of the season. Wise financial management, but that hardly makes it a "tank" move.

2. unloading a wasted "talent" that was hurting this team's play, and chances to win, in virtually every game, coupled with upgrading at both the PG and bigs depth.

Save the pompous chest-thumping until there is actually a "tank" trade that actually fits your proposed ideas of tanking.