What's your price on Amir?

[phdmac]

likely why i hated you before I read your post...i effin hated the MOuntie hahaha

because he always gets his man?

[mountio]

This. If you're measuring players based on the standards of ESPN rankings. I'm not surprised that we disagree on how valuable Amir is compared to someone like Barnes.

Johnson has an offensive rating of 104.3 compared to Barnes' 99.5 and a defensive rating of 98.7 compared to Barnes' 103.0 for an overall net rating of 5.5 compared to -3.4.

But if ESPN says Barnes is better........

I realize this is like arguing Catholic vs Protestant, but Ill say it one more time. ESPNRank is a bunch of dudes who know a lot of shit about basketball, including advanced stats, regular stats, eye test, intanglibles, etc taking the time to rank every player in the league. It is perfect? Hell no .. far from.

But is it better than you, for example, throwing out three random stats like offensive rating, defensive rating and net rating and calling it gospel in terms of comparing players .... um, ya .. Im gonna go out a limb and say that it is ...

[psrs1]

I would also like to point out that no team values Amir as much as the raptors. So if you actually think the raps get a lotto pick in any draft for Amir Johnson you are going to be disappointed. He would probably return less than what a lot of fans would expect and want for such a great raptor.

I agree. That is why he may remain in T.O.

[mountio]

Yes, I grew up a Bulls fan (like you say, there wasnt much else to watch at the time.) And one thing that is clear about Horace Grant is that he WAS the third banana on those teams. I havent looked at his stats (I clearly wasnt roaming basketball-reference in those days) - and will write this response from memory .. but will probably be too tempted to confirm my memory afterwards. [so maybe more to come in a subsequent post]

Anyways - here is what I remember about those bulls teams. If you talk big 3 .. it was always jordan, pippen and grant (obviosly replaced by Rodman / Kucoc as the years went on). I have NEVER, EVER heard Amir referred to as the third option, third best player, third anything on the raps [small correction, with the exception of this thread and a guy named Buddhafan who used to sing his praises here].
Grant was money from the high post. Knocked down Js and scored as part of the offense. Amir is probably a better finisher around the rim / garbage collecter, but Horace was much, much better in the offense. Think about how Miami uses Bosh now, and you cant honestly tell me that the role isnt similar to Grant. (I know bosh has more allstar games etc - but in terms of role on the team, its pretty damn close to me). Grant was also a very solid post defender.
Amir? Night and day difference. Has little to no role in the offense, outside of cleaning up misses, running the floor and, yes, hitting the odd J .. but a much smaller percentage of his hoops come in the context of the offense. Also, not a great defender (ok, but not great).
Soo .. I could go on, but again, Ill reiterate, that you are comparing the third best player on one of the best teams ever to a role player on the Raps. And you think Im out to lunch? I just dont get it ...

To add on the stats. Grant in his last three years with the Bulls
- 13-15 ppg
- 10-11 rpg
- 50-58% shooting
Bosh the last two years
- 14-16 ppg
- 6-7 rpg
- 52-53% shooting
Amir before this year
- 10 ppg career high (avg 7 ppg)
- 7.5 rpg career high (avg 5.6 rpg)
- 55-60% shooting (he has always been a great FG% guy - no doubt there - career 58% is great)

So .. none are perfect comps .. but if I had to chose the two here that are the closest, its clearly Grant and Bosh with Amir the outlier. Throw in the first two were third bananas on great teams and Amir has barely played on a winning team and Im not sure there is much left to argue.

[white men can't jump]

I'd imagine meriting press credentials would start with refraining from making snide, underhanded comments in rational discussions.

Sorry, but it just seemed like a seriously ignorant remark for somebody who's job it is to cover a basketball team, and as part of that, often try to view possibilities objectively/rationally. Getting pretty sick of people in general suggesting that hoping for a good draft pick is the only route that relies on luck.

Also, there are plenty of members of the press who make plenty of snide, smartassish, bias remarks...In fact that pretty much describes Bill Simmons.

[Superjudge]

Yes, I grew up a Bulls fan (like you say, there wasnt much else to watch at the time.) And one thing that is clear about Horace Grant is that he WAS the third banana on those teams. I havent looked at his stats (I clearly wasnt roaming basketball-reference in those days) - and will write this response from memory .. but will probably be too tempted to confirm my memory afterwards. [so maybe more to come in a subsequent post]

Anyways - here is what I remember about those bulls teams. If you talk big 3 .. it was always jordan, pippen and grant (obviosly replaced by Rodman / Kucoc as the years went on). I have NEVER, EVER heard Amir referred to as the third option, third best player, third anything on the raps [small correction, with the exception of this thread and a guy named Buddhafan who used to sing his praises here].
Grant was money from the high post. Knocked down Js and scored as part of the offense. Amir is probably a better finisher around the rim / garbage collecter, but Horace was much, much better in the offense. Think about how Miami uses Bosh now, and you cant honestly tell me that the role isnt similar to Grant. (I know bosh has more allstar games etc - but in terms of role on the team, its pretty damn close to me). Grant was also a very solid post defender.
Amir? Night and day difference. Has little to no role in the offense, outside of cleaning up misses, running the floor and, yes, hitting the odd J .. but a much smaller percentage of his hoops come in the context of the offense. Also, not a great defender (ok, but not great).
Soo .. I could go on, but again, Ill reiterate, that you are comparing the third best player on one of the best teams ever to a role player on the Raps. And you think Im out to lunch? I just dont get it ...

I hear you, but Horace as a third option was only a third option due to the triangle offence, the 4 guy was the step out baseline guy. And yes, he was a good player (was my fav Bull by a mile), and i will stand by what i feel, i think his game was very, VERY similar to Amirs. I think Amir would have done fantastic as a Bull back then. Lets try to remember that grant had very reliable centers, a wicked sharpshooting Pg, Jordan, and a killer stretch 3 in Pippen. Makes a bit of a difference doesn't it? Remember how well Horace cleaned the garbage up.... and how well a guy like rodman stepped in, even though he had ZERO offensive skill in that offence?

Where I will concede is that Horace is a better defender, but I see Amir starting to really get that straight, and seeing that he's only 26, I see a lot of years ahead of the guy to improve.

Anyhow man, Sorry i came at ya hard, its only a difference in opinion on this one, and I can see how you're looking at it. I imagine i just reall ylike how amir plays the game, and he has always reminded me of Horace... just a feeling I get.

[Superjudge]

To add on the stats. Grant in his last three years with the Bulls
- 13-15 ppg
- 10-11 rpg
- 50-58% shooting
Bosh the last two years
- 14-16 ppg
- 6-7 rpg
- 52-53% shooting
Amir before this year
- 10 ppg career high (avg 7 ppg)
- 7.5 rpg career high (avg 5.6 rpg)
- 55-60% shooting (he has always been a great FG% guy - no doubt there - career 58% is great)

So .. none are perfect comps .. but if I had to chose the two here that are the closest, its clearly Grant and Bosh with Amir the outlier. Throw in the first two were third bananas on great teams and Amir has barely played on a winning team and Im not sure there is much left to argue.

Ahh... but you are taking three guys, in three vastly different situations, in different era's even. Simply applying the stats isn't really fair. Bosh was a top level guy on a team, now he's scraps guy, and thats ONLY because of his place in the offence. when they want him to score and make him #1 (which they have done from time to time) he knocks down 30+. could Grant or amir do that.... perhaps occasionally, but I dont think consistently.


Sly fox you!

[navyblues]

I have browsed/read RR for years and never posted before. This conversation, though, has me riled up a bit. Amir Johnson is the perfect basketball player. He is probably ranked 13th or 14th among PF in the league. Most of those those PF's that are better than him are also older than him. The younger ones? Aldridge, Griffin, Ryan Anderson, Greg Monroe, and Davis. Faried, I would say, is comparable. All of those people either make way more than Amir, or will be making way more than Amir very shortly. He probably has ten years left in the league. He is an asset. Yes, we are acquiring assets, but I don't see why you would trade one young HEALTHY asset for another, when the asset you have is tried & true -- and making a very reasonable salary.

But all of that is beside the point. The raptors should keep Amir because he is worth millions and millions to their franchise. He's one of the few who has kept people watching this terrible Toronto team for the last few years. The effort he puts into his game every night is what excites fans. He plays good, marketable basketball. He loves the city and the city loves him. A #11 pick is highly unlikely to replace that. No one is paying $90 to watch Ross shoot 2 of 6 from the field. It would be stupid to trade Amir, no matter what the return, the same as it was stupid to fire Alvin Williams from his job in the office. I believe that teams should be run like a business, and I think it's just plain bad business to get rid of your hardest worker.

[white men can't jump]

I have browsed/read RR for years and never posted before. This conversation, though, has me riled up a bit. Amir Johnson is the perfect basketball player. He is probably ranked 13th or 14th among PF in the league. Most of those those PF's that are better than him are also older than him. The younger ones? Aldridge, Griffin, Ryan Anderson, Greg Monroe, and Davis. Faried, I would say, is comparable. All of those people either make way more than Amir, or will be making way more than Amir very shortly. He probably has ten years left in the league. He is an asset. Yes, we are acquiring assets, but I don't see why you would trade one young HEALTHY asset for another, when the asset you have is tried & true -- and making a very reasonable salary.

But all of that is beside the point. The raptors should keep Amir because he is worth millions and millions to their franchise. He's one of the few who has kept people watching this terrible Toronto team for the last few years. The effort he puts into his game every night is what excites fans. He plays good, marketable basketball. He loves the city and the city loves him. A #11 pick is highly unlikely to replace that. No one is paying $90 to watch Ross shoot 2 of 6 from the field. It would be stupid to trade Amir, no matter what the return, the same as it was stupid to fire Alvin Williams from his job in the office. I believe that teams should be run like a business, and I think it's just plain bad business to get rid of your hardest worker.

I don't know if much of anybody thinks it's smart to trade Amir. There might be some hardcore tankers who consider it, because losing Amir (especially with a Vasquez in place if Lowry leaves) is very likely the easiest path to improve the Raptors draft position, and his value could quite feasibly bring back another 1st rounder on top of our own. Even in such a scenario, the offer would still have to be amazing, like Godfather amazing.

[CT2010]

That is a great question.

Unless you happen to be the Miami Heat, greatness will come in baby steps and it doesn't necessarily make sense to sell off all of your valuable assets at one time in the hopes that you might become better in the future. I agree with most here that have said if a great offer comes around you have to consider it, but I think Amir offers a lot to the Raps and I am fine with keeping him.

[CT2010]

See thats your opinion. Clearly I believe Amir is a special player.

Amir is #1 PF (played at least 20 mpg) this season in TS% with .645. 2nd is Dirk with .601

For comparison Lebron has a TS% of .680

He has been doing this for years in a row.

He is also at a def rating of 98.7, which is the best on this team, and top-10 for PFs.

Not every team has someone like Amir at 26 with his capabilities.

These sound like the elite skills that some have suggested he doesn't possess.

[S.R.]

Admittedly, a 5-10 2014 pick would be the ideal return for Amir.

But a mid-late first rounder is an asinine suggestion. That cherry picked list of 25 players (which included Rudy Gay) was a pretty self-defeating argument.

Amir is a talented player on a good contract, still 26 years old and still improving. Don't forget that bit. Amir hasn't even hit his ceiling yet. He's become a bit more effective each season and clearly has more potential in his jumper/range.

The Raps don't need to trade Amir for a draft pick that will hopefully be about as good - they should only trade him for a return that makes the Raps markedly better (immediately or in the future). There is no pressure or good reason to dump Amir Johnson for any kind of first round pick that will amount to a roll of the dice re: the returns developing into a higher quality asset. What a stupid, pointless gamble.

[Masai Ujiri]

Amir and DeRozan do not need to be traded unless we are fleecing the other team in the trade.

Tank or no tank, it's a terrible idea. Even with them we're still going to pick top 10 at the absolute worst.

[NoPropsneeded]

Amir and DeRozan do not need to be traded unless we are fleecing the other team in the trade.

Tank or no tank, it's a terrible idea. Even with them we're still going to pick top 10 at the absolute worst.

I agree. I've said the time and time again. DeRozan, JV, Amir and Ross should not be going anywhere unless its for a top 5 or 6 pick.

[ball4life]

I agree. I've said the time and time again. DeRozan, JV, Amir and Ross should not be going anywhere unless its for a top 5 or 6 pick.

if the bold holds up... they aint going NOOwhere!