The Integrity Conundrum

[TSF]

Promises don't mean anything if someone puts a contract with ten mil a year under his nose. A promise isn't as binding as a signature on a dotted line.

[brickwall281]

Just worth noting: Lowry did say that he made a promise to the Toronto fans that he'd get them into the playoffs. Just saying. May indicate he has no intention of leaving TO.

[KeonClark]

Casey probably gave him a card with his role on it:

THREE POINT SHOOTER,
SECOND UNIT FIRST SCORING OPTION,
FIND YOUR INNER ALLEN IVERSON

That's not much better than the card he gave Rudy Gay halfway through last year

[JawsGT]

Agree - except that if you truely werent tanking (ie were trying to win THIS YEAR), you would either keep him, or trade him for someone who is locked up for a few years and can contribute to this team now. THJr and a 2018 pick dont qualify.

Again, I totally agree that MU knows what hes doing and isnt going to get fleeced, but its ok to admit that he likely has an eye on the future more than on this year (which frankly, he should!)

I do agree with that, and at no point did I argue otherwise. But you are missing my point, trading Lowry does not have to be about the upcoming draft or the upcoming playoffs. The future for MU goes well beyond the timeframe between the end of this regular season and the start of the next. Making trades now just for the draft or just for the playoffs are BC type moves, not MU type moves. A return on Lowry isn't gonna make us contenders this year regardless, we ain't beating Indy or Miami so why be worried about making a trade for the playoffs this year. You see it as either trade to tank, or trade to make the playoffs this year, but I don't, that's where we disagree.

[TSF]

If we don't get a good deal, and we don't think a good S&T is going to be available, the Nene option is available- resign him for a not unreasonable price and ship him off anyway

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Here's the way I see it. Lowry is an expiring asset. So, MU has three options here. 1. Ride out the season and let him walk. 2. Trade him this season. 3. Offer him a contract extension this offseason. Let's assume MU is not a total dumbass and as such #1 is not an option. So lets consider #3. Maybe MU does not want Lowry to be the PG of the future, or maybe he thinks Lowry has no intentions of being the Raps PG of the future. So, we are left with option #2. MU is almost in a situation where he HAS to trade Lowry, but MU being a smart GM, isn't going to do that for nothing. He looks around the league and he knows that a decent deal for Lowry will present itself because there are teams that need a decent PG. So he is more concerned with trading Lowry and getting a return on that trade than he is with descending in the standings. If MU wanted to trade Lowry to tank, I think it would have been done already, as every game that goes by with this guy in the lineup decreases our chance of a lottery pick.

And thats why trading Lowry isn't necessarily to support a tank job. If the team does get worse, and we do end up in the lottery well thats just a bonus really. What MU wants is value for the moves he makes...this guy isn't getting fleeced on any trade.

There is a 4th option, which is to keep Lowry throughout the season, followed by a S&T in the offseason. There's obviously risked and unknowns involved with this option as well, so I don't think it's a top option.

Given MU's track record, I really don't see him letting Lowry walk for nothing.

A S&T deal in the offseason for something less than the Knicks offer (who knows what other offers have been proposed), would seem like a failure, so I really don't see this as a great option for MU.

I agree that the re-signing option seems unlikely, for various possible reasons. If MU wanted Lowry back and Lowry wanted to be back, there's no way MU would be shopping Lowry as aggressively as he apparently is. Even if they were waiting for the offseason to finalize the deal, you'd think the two sides would at least be talking throughout the season and would be on the same page come the trade deadline at least. I have to think that at least one side doesn't want Lowry on the Raptors next season.

Therefore, I agree that a trade seems almost inevitable, given the other potential options. Of course, MU will not let on how desperate the situation is (especially if Lowry's agent has made it clear that Lowry doesn't want to re-sign with Toronto), in order to maintain his leverage in negotiations. I would be shocked if Lowry is still a Raptor come the trade deadline, unless MU believes he can use him as a S&T chip in the offseason.

[p00ka]

Agree - except that if you truely werent tanking (ie were trying to win THIS YEAR), you would either keep him, or trade him for someone who is locked up for a few years and can contribute to this team now. THJr and a 2018 pick dont qualify.

Again, I totally agree that MU knows what hes doing and isnt going to get fleeced, but its ok to admit that he likely has an eye on the future more than on this year (which frankly, he should!)

At this point, we have to trust he has his eye on the future, but you seem to be locked onto a leap that if he isn't tanking, the only other possibility is that he must be shooting for the moon. If he doesn't unload Lowry any time soon, that doesn't mean he's looking only at short term and wants a vet to "contend" in the playoffs. All we really know about MU, besides history, is:
- he's signed for 5 years
- he's committed to not being a treadmill team. rather he's targeting championship contention
- he moved AB and his contract for a deal none of us would have imagined. A deal that made the team better both long and short term.
- he said he was in the process of evaluating before making any big decisions
- he moved decisively, and negotiated a sweet deal , under the circumstances, to rid the team of Gay and his contract, ultimately making the team better, long and short term
- Lowry rumours,,,,,,, need I really have to suggest to be taken with a grain of salt?

How about considering that he didn't have a carved in stone plan when the season started, which is what he said, and he still doesn't. That would include playoff aspirations or blow it up options. If he's a smart man, something I think most here would concede to so far, he's been doing his job and knows very well what GMs are interested in getting which of his players, and what players they want to move. We don't. These guys talk all the time, and much more that what leaks to, or is guessed by, the media.

We don't know any of that shit, but we do know that he may be facing quite the conundrum, as the thread title suggests. If he truly had sights set on moving Lowry, he may feel he faces quite the conundrum right now, with how the team has been playing, and with how Lowry has been playing. On the other hand, maybe he's been talking with Kyle and/or his agent, and maybe both sides think they may be able to work out an equitable deal after the playing is done this season, and his brain now is inputting Kyle's, and the team's, recent play into account.

We know shit about the realities that MU faces in his job right now. Certainly not enough to judge what he's not doing.

[mountio]

Here's the way I see it. Lowry is an expiring asset. So, MU has three options here. 1. Ride out the season and let him walk. 2. Trade him this season. 3. Offer him a contract extension this offseason. Let's assume MU is not a total dumbass and as such #1 is not an option. So lets consider #3. Maybe MU does not want Lowry to be the PG of the future, or maybe he thinks Lowry has no intentions of being the Raps PG of the future. So, we are left with option #2. MU is almost in a situation where he HAS to trade Lowry, but MU being a smart GM, isn't going to do that for nothing. He looks around the league and he knows that a decent deal for Lowry will present itself because there are teams that need a decent PG. So he is more concerned with trading Lowry and getting a return on that trade than he is with descending in the standings. If MU wanted to trade Lowry to tank, I think it would have been done already, as every game that goes by with this guy in the lineup decreases our chance of a lottery pick.

And thats why trading Lowry isn't necessarily to support a tank job. If the team does get worse, and we do end up in the lottery well thats just a bonus really. What MU wants is value for the moves he makes...this guy isn't getting fleeced on any trade.

Agree - except that if you truely werent tanking (ie were trying to win THIS YEAR), you would either keep him, or trade him for someone who is locked up for a few years and can contribute to this team now. THJr and a 2018 pick dont qualify.

Again, I totally agree that MU knows what hes doing and isnt going to get fleeced, but its ok to admit that he likely has an eye on the future more than on this year (which frankly, he should!)

[JawsGT]

Im not sure why people are so allergic to admitting that certain moves are to tank. You use a bunch of flowery words, but to suggest that trading Lowry for THJr and a 2018 pick isnt to try to tank (which btw is basically defined as losing more now in order to improve your long term position) - is flat out wrong. This team would be undeniably worse without KL. Not even debateable.

Im not sure why people feel more comfortable calling it "collecting assets" or whatever else ... but call it what you want, its tanking. Tanking doesnt mean being stupid and taking crap back for your assets - of course you should get as much value back as possible. It means making a conscious effort to sacrifice short term wins for long term hope.

The Rudy trade was also meant to tank ... maybe not as obvious as KL as there may be a slight argument for addition by subtraction (it appears to be the case so far) - but how you can argue that KL to NYK for THJr doesnt make us worse is beyond me

Here's the way I see it. Lowry is an expiring asset. So, MU has three options here. 1. Ride out the season and let him walk. 2. Trade him this season. 3. Offer him a contract extension this offseason. Let's assume MU is not a total dumbass and as such #1 is not an option. So lets consider #3. Maybe MU does not want Lowry to be the PG of the future, or maybe he thinks Lowry has no intentions of being the Raps PG of the future. So, we are left with option #2. MU is almost in a situation where he HAS to trade Lowry, but MU being a smart GM, isn't going to do that for nothing. He looks around the league and he knows that a decent deal for Lowry will present itself because there are teams that need a decent PG. So he is more concerned with trading Lowry and getting a return on that trade than he is with descending in the standings. If MU wanted to trade Lowry to tank, I think it would have been done already, as every game that goes by with this guy in the lineup decreases our chance of a lottery pick.

And thats why trading Lowry isn't necessarily to support a tank job. If the team does get worse, and we do end up in the lottery well thats just a bonus really. What MU wants is value for the moves he makes...this guy isn't getting fleeced on any trade.

[p00ka]

Integrity. Something one has to throw out the window to tank, given what assets the raps had before the season, and even a bigger issue now. How does MU maintain credibility to the season ticket holders, not a few hundred diehard tankers on here, if he breaks up what is going on now, to chase draft lottery fantasies? He'd need one hell of a haul. Is one available? Unlikely, but he does seem to have some magic up his sleeves.

[mountio]

Disagree on the Rudy trade being tank
- $19MM contract gone - that is a flexibility move - either to accept crappy contracts for future assets(tanking) or go onto the FA market for that great piece(rebuilding)
- More importantly, Rudy was damaging the other team members' values - JV and TRoss not being developed; Lowry not being show-cased; Dead offence

Agree on KL trade being tanking; the Raptor winning landscape with a possible Vasquez/Fenton PG set is pretty bleak.

agree - as I noted, its a little more debatable. However, without the benefit of hindsight, I would guess that almost every person would have said that the Kings got the better players out of that deal. Ie on the court, Gay+Acy>GV+2Pat+Salmons

As result, the point of the trade was to improve long term (as you say, through losses, FAs, whatever, while sacrificing short term results. In my mind - thats a step towards tanking. It obviously has great flexibility benefits too.

Now, as it turns out, its let better players (Ross, JV) get shots ahead of RG, so a net positive to the team. But, I would say thats a collateral benefit, as opposed to the intention of the trade.

[psrs1]

Im not sure why people are so allergic to admitting that certain moves are to tank. You use a bunch of flowery words, but to suggest that trading Lowry for THJr and a 2018 pick isnt to try to tank (which btw is basically defined as losing more now in order to improve your long term position) - is flat out wrong. This team would be undeniably worse without KL. Not even debateable.

Im not sure why people feel more comfortable calling it "collecting assets" or whatever else ... but call it what you want, its tanking. Tanking doesnt mean being stupid and taking crap back for your assets - of course you should get as much value back as possible. It means making a conscious effort to sacrifice short term wins for long term hope.

The Rudy trade was also meant to tank ... maybe not as obvious as KL as there may be a slight argument for addition by subtraction (it appears to be the case so far) - but how you can argue that KL to NYK for THJr doesnt make us worse is beyond me

The Rudy Gay trade if intended to tank backfired as far as wins and losses go.

[GoingBig]

The Rudy trade was also meant to tank ... maybe not as obvious as KL as there may be a slight argument for addition by subtraction (it appears to be the case so far) - but how you can argue that KL to NYK for THJr doesnt make us worse is beyond me

Disagree on the Rudy trade being tank
- $19MM contract gone - that is a flexibility move - either to accept crappy contracts for future assets(tanking) or go onto the FA market for that great piece(rebuilding)
- More importantly, Rudy was damaging the other team members' values - JV and TRoss not being developed; Lowry not being show-cased; Dead offence

Agree on KL trade being tanking; the Raptor winning landscape with a possible Vasquez/Fenton PG set is pretty bleak.

[Shrub]

lol the title of this thread sounds like an episode of big bang theory.

I like wording

[akashsingh]

lol the title of this thread sounds like an episode of big bang theory.