Can't think of a superstar that fits better than Kevin Love

[Masai Ujiri]

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I 100% agree on Love. If he REALLY were a top 10 NBA player, how the hell can his team have not made the playoffs in a league where 16 teams make it every year, especially when you consider that a) several of the teams ahead of him have 2 top ten players and b) he plays with two other top 50ish players (rubio and Pekovic). Its completely inexcusable and the only conclusion I can draw is that he is NOT really a top 10 player. Is he a good player? for sure. Arguably very good. Probably top 25-30 or something - but not as good as people think.
I realize there have been injuries and other circumstances and that would certainly explain not making the playoffs EVERY year .. but doesnt explain not making them ever (and looks like another missed playoffs this year)

Love started to become a star in the 10-11 season. Rubio wasn't on the team yet that year (Rubio is overrated btw, he can't shoot and yes it does effect the team despite how good of a passer and defender he is), and their starting 5 was Ridnour/Wesley Johnson/Beasley/Love/Darko. That's not a good team sorry. Even a really great player cannot win with crap, it's only those generational talents like LeBron that can do much with sub-par teammates, that's a different tier of player from Love or really anyone else in the NBA minus Durant. The following year (only 66 games) Love missed 11 games and Rubio missed 21 (and was only really somewhat healthy in the games he did play), Pekovic was ok but not great (13-7) and the rest of the team was wildly inconsistent. They also had way too many point guards, and as a result had Ridnour and Barea playing SG at times. Considering it was a shortened season, there wasn't a lot of room for error/adapting to guys being in and out of the rotation all the time.

Last year Love obviously missed basically the entire season (64 games).

This is his first year with a fully healthy Wolves team. The problem is the team is highly flawed. Adelman does a good job of coaching them but at the end of the day: they have a point guard that can't shoot, a 2-guard that can't defend, a small forward that can't shoot, and a center who is a terrible rim protector/weakside defender. It's not a particularly good team and they're 17-17 in the ultra-tough west. As I pointed out before, in the Western Conference you typically need two legitimate stars and a very strong, well-fit team around them to be in a playoff spot. It's not the East.

Everyone says certain stars aren't winners until... you know they actually win.

Even Kobe couldn't do a thing with the Lakers when Shaq left. It wasn't until they brought in Pau and Bynum/Odom elevated their games that he started seeing postseason success again. It's a team sport.

My only point is Amir is like a mini-Love in terms of advanced stats over-rating him and people claiming that he "leads to winning" - when in fact he hasnt at all. Reason? His game isnt influential enough to really make a difference in winning and losing. Hes a GREAT complimentary player .. but the fate of the raps has gone (good or bad) with the more influential players (AB, DD, RG etc).

Bottom line, I like both players and would certianly take both on my team in a heartbeat. But, if you overvalue both as some people want to and think that Love is a top ten guy or amir is anything more than a great 4th/5th starter and glue guy, then your team will be in trouble.[/QUOTE]

[Masai Ujiri]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Love isn't a better player than Amir, but Love isn't a better fit on this current Raptors roster. For all of Love's talent he hasn't taken Minnesota into the playoffs...ever I think? They have a top 10 pg in Rubio, top 5 PF in Love, a really good 2 way centre in Pek, good supporting cast, but still just a .500 team. He's a good player, but not elite and needs an elite player to play next to in order to suceed (Kobe and the Lakers).

If you were to trade for Love, you would have to restructure the entire Raptors roster which is going backwards. And you would still need a true superstar for him to play next to to be a good team.

Gonna break this down piece by piece.

First of all Rubio is not a top 10 point guard. He is a top 3 passer I'll give him that, and he's a good disruptor on the defensive end but it stops there. He cannot shoot the basketball, and he doesn't make up for it like Rondo with being able to get to the rim consistently for layups. He's actually somewhat of a liability on the offensive side of the ball. The guy's true shooting percentage is 46.5% and his eFG% is 38.4%. He's atrociously inefficient and isn't a threat to score at all.

And Pekovic is not a good 2 way center. He is a good ONE way center. His post defense is alright because of his strength, but the guy does not know how to play help-side defense and cannot protect the rim period.

I'm not necessarily sure Love needs an elite player to play next to. The Grizzlies were able to get to the WESTERN conference finals with a team of

Conley/Allen/Prince/ZBo/Gasol.

Randolph is actually a worse defender than Love (neither of them are bad btw, just not great), they're about on par in terms of man defense but Love is quicker and also a better defensive rebounder so the edge would go to him.

I think Jonas has AT LEAST as much potential as Gasol on both ends of the floor if not more. Marc Gasol is a massively overrated player, and a Jonas/Val frontcourt would be a lot better than that Grizzlies' long-term. Ross and DeRozan are both better than Tony Allen and Prince, and I think depending on who you keep if you get Love (or maybe somehow keep both), Ross has the potential to play elite defense like Allen WHILE actually being able to spread the floor, and DeRozan is a significantly more potent offensive weapon than either player. Lowry/Conley is probably about even depending on who you ask.

There is no reason why swapping Amir+ for Love would destroy the Raptors' defense. You can still have a very effective defense with the right schemes and personnel, which we have the coaching and players to pull off.

[Balls of Steel]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Love isn't a better player than Amir, but Love isn't a better fit on this current Raptors roster. For all of Love's talent he hasn't taken Minnesota into the playoffs...ever I think? They have a top 10 pg in Rubio, top 5 PF in Love, a really good 2 way centre in Pek, good supporting cast, but still just a .500 team. He's a good player, but not elite and needs an elite player to play next to in order to suceed (Kobe and the Lakers).

If you were to trade for Love, you would have to restructure the entire Raptors roster which is going backwards. And you would still need a true superstar for him to play next to to be a good team.

Again the obsession with the "number 1" option. Even if it's possible, what would it take to get Love off Minny?

[Masai Ujiri]

Again the obsession with the "number 1" option. Even if it's possible, what would it take to get Love off Minny?

Not sure what a deal with Minnesota would look like. I'd assume they'd want cap relief in the form of expiring contracts, draft picks and prospects.

I think you'd be looking at a package like the Nets trade for D-Will (not so much the Melo trade because the Knicks were desperate and got fleeced).

I believe it was Devin Harris (solid replacement veteran PG), Derrick Favors (talented prospect), the Nets 2011 lottery pick and a future Warriors pick (which they didn't get until 2013 because I think it was top-7 protected in 2012). Ended up using it to get Trey Burke via a draft day trade.

[Mediumcore]

Gonna break this down piece by piece.

First of all Rubio is not a top 10 point guard. He is a top 3 passer I'll give him that, and he's a good disruptor on the defensive end but it stops there. He cannot shoot the basketball, and he doesn't make up for it like Rondo with being able to get to the rim consistently for layups. He's actually somewhat of a liability on the offensive side of the ball. The guy's true shooting percentage is 46.5% and his eFG% is 38.4%. He's atrociously inefficient and isn't a threat to score at all.

And Pekovic is not a good 2 way center. He is a good ONE way center. His post defense is alright because of his strength, but the guy does not know how to play help-side defense and cannot protect the rim period.

I'm not necessarily sure Love needs an elite player to play next to. The Grizzlies were able to get to the WESTERN conference finals with a team of

Conley/Allen/Prince/ZBo/Gasol.

Randolph is actually a worse defender than Love (neither of them are bad btw, just not great), they're about on par in terms of man defense but Love is quicker and also a better defensive rebounder so the edge would go to him.

I think Jonas has AT LEAST as much potential as Gasol on both ends of the floor if not more. Marc Gasol is a massively overrated player, and a Jonas/Val frontcourt would be a lot better than that Grizzlies' long-term. Ross and DeRozan are both better than Tony Allen and Prince, and I think depending on who you keep if you get Love (or maybe somehow keep both), Ross has the potential to play elite defense like Allen WHILE actually being able to spread the floor, and DeRozan is a significantly more potent offensive weapon than either player. Lowry/Conley is probably about even depending on who you ask.

There is no reason why swapping Amir+ for Love would destroy the Raptors' defense. You can still have a very effective defense with the right schemes and personnel, which we have the coaching and players to pull off.

If you really think that Love would be surrounded by a much better cast here than in Minnesota then this conversation is sort of a mute point. I think we have a better team, but not to the point of where we are heads and shoulders better than Minny to which point you could add Love and it makes us elite. Love puts up some elite numbers, but he's not elite imo, as he hasn't taken his team anywhere.

It's the Raptors D, that is most directly responsible for their better play as of late, and not their offense. You would be surplanting a key part of that D by moving Amir out of that rotation for Love.

[Mediumcore]

Again the obsession with the "number 1" option. Even if it's possible, what would it take to get Love off Minny?

Don't know, and personally I don't care to find out. I'm happier with the Amir/JV front court with this current roster than with JV and Love.

[JordanMariam14]

I say if we sign Durant, make a few minor changes and develop our young players further we can win the Finals.

Raptors 2017 Champs!!!!

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[BigCamB]

Yeah Rubio is not a top 10 PG, been disappointed with his development this season. Love is okish defensively. If he had Bogut backing him up like David Lee does, he would look a lot better. Pek and love work great offensively, not so much defensively.
Oh. lol, someone is now trying to claim Marc Gasol is massively overrated. What a joke that is. I can maaaaaybe understand why people think Love is, but Marc is amazing anyway you look at it.

[Masai Ujiri]

If you really think that Love would be surrounded by a much better cast here than in Minnesota then this conversation is sort of a mute point. I think we have a better team, but not to the point of where we are heads and shoulders better than Minny to which point you could add Love and it makes us elite. Love puts up some elite numbers, but he's not elite imo, as he hasn't taken his team anywhere.

It's the Raptors D, that is most directly responsible for their better play as of late, and not their offense. You would be surplanting a key part of that D by moving Amir out of that rotation for Love.

Can you explain to me how the Warriors have the #4 defense with the worst paint defender in the league (David Lee) in their starting 5?

[Masai Ujiri]

Can you explain to me how the Warriors have the #4 defense with the worst paint defender in the league (David Lee) in their starting 5?

Still waiting for a response to this.

All the things people are saying about Love, people were saying about David Lee when he was on the Knicks and made his first ASG

"Oh he's just padding his stats"
"He kills your team defensively"
"He's not a winner"

Well... clearly those things aren't true or he wouldn't be on a title contender right now with one of the best defenses in the league, and still getting his numbers while playing with Curry, Klay and Iguodala.

Defense is a team concept, it's not so much about individuals. Sure there are guys that shine bright on the defensive end, but not all 5 starters need to be a Paul George or Luol Deng to win. Boozer isn't a particularly good defender and the Bulls have had no problem being a top defense with him around. I think it's moreso about coaching and getting guys to buy in. Hell, weren't the Raptors 14th in defense in 2011-12? We were giving heavy minutes to guys like Bargnani, Barbosa and Calderon, none of whom are considered good defenders.

[white men can't jump]

Still waiting for a response to this.

All the things people are saying about Love, people were saying about David Lee when he was on the Knicks and made his first ASG

"Oh he's just padding his stats"
"He kills your team defensively"
"He's not a winner"

Well... clearly those things aren't true or he wouldn't be on a title contender right now with one of the best defenses in the league, and still getting his numbers while playing with Curry, Klay and Iguodala.

Defense is a team concept, it's not so much about individuals. Sure there are guys that shine bright on the defensive end, but not all 5 starters need to be a Paul George or Luol Deng to win. Boozer isn't a particularly good defender and the Bulls have had no problem being a top defense with him around. I think it's moreso about coaching and getting guys to buy in. Hell, weren't the Raptors 14th in defense in 2011-12? We were giving heavy minutes to guys like Bargnani, Barbosa and Calderon, none of whom are considered good defenders.

Except that Lee is arguably the 3rd or even 4th...or shit, even 5th best player on the Warriors (Curry, Iggy, Thompson, and even Bogut because of his defensive impact). We'd be acquiring Love to be our franchise player and paying him like one. This makes it a very different situation. Lee is still the weak link in their D, and since being there, the team has at times played better going small because they become better defensively.

[Nilanka]

Without reading the whole thread, anyone care to summarize how we even go about acquiring Love? What does it cost us?

[white men can't jump]

Without reading the whole thread, anyone care to summarize how we even go about acquiring Love? What does it cost us?

Yeah, I've said in a post earlier this is part of what bugs me about it. Forget that you'll be maxing him out to keep him at some point, thus devoting a lot of capspace to him.

I imagine that if we were working with our current roster, and given Love's age and production....It would probably be something like Amir + Salmons + Ross + 3 1st round picks to even have a chance at him.

[Nilanka]

I imagine that if we were working with our current roster, and given Love's age and production....It would probably be something like Amir + Salmons + Ross + 3 1st round picks to even have a chance at him.

Far too rich for my blood.

I've got a rubber Voit basketball, plus some pocket lint to offer. Hoping Newton bites.

[Nilanka]

Love getting tired of the losing in Minny?

“We can’t have two guys sitting at the end of the bench that play good minutes just sitting there and not getting up during timeouts,” Love said, referring to the poor body language exhibited by veterans J.J. Barea and Dante Cunningham in the fourth quarter. “We all need to be in this together. That kind of (ticks) me off. We’re supposed to be a team.”

“It’s two guys that we expect more from them,” Love said. “I think they expect more from themselves. I’m not trying to single anybody out and I don’t want to make it bigger than it is, but it’s just a team that we needed to beat tonight and we needed everybody in there, even guys that didn’t play any minutes. We need to have a team and a bench that’s really in it together.”

http://dimemag.com/2014/01/kevin-lov...-gerald-green/