Can DeMar surpass Harden?

[Pong]

I remember not too long ago someone posted a link to a Lithuanian article interviewing motiejunas. He was talking about the rockets and how they weren't a true team, where Howard and Harden would eat meals at a different table than everyone else, wouldn't say hi to anyone when they showed up for practice or games, in general just wouldn't do decent human being/teammate things.

I think it's safe to say his teammates don't like him.

All that efficient scoring aside, the fact that he is such a douche is the reason some (maybe even most) Toronto sports fans would rather have Demar. He's a "Toronto" guy.

It becomes even more amplified when you compare the recent "success" of the rockets to some other teams who are known to play for each other (blazers, spurs come to mind).

This is completely my opinion, but I could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now I'm not saying Harden is anywhere close to Kobe, but from what i read Kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having Kobe on their team?

[rightsideup]

this is completely my opinion, but i could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now i'm not saying harden is anywhere close to kobe, but from what i read kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having kobe on their team?

shaq

[S.R.]

This is completely my opinion, but I could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now I'm not saying Harden is anywhere close to Kobe, but from what i read Kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having Kobe on their team?

Reducing the chemistry/leadership issue to being "chummy" or a good locker room buddy is a gross misrepresentation about what was said. The argument against a guy like Harden, whether or not it's valid, is that despite immense personal basketball talent, his impact on the overall success of the team is not that great. Basically it's a version of the Ewing theory.

If you're looking for a list of selfish basketball players who don't play a lick of defense and who were the #1 guy on championship teams in the NBA, your list will be very, very short. In spite of immensely different personalities and leadership styles, regardless of whether or not they were well liked by their teammates, it's pretty well recognized that guys like Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, MJ, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. etc. made their teams much, much better simply by being on them. It's a totally valid argument that some guys fill the stat sheet with personal skills that don't seem to translate to proportionately heightened team success.

I'm with willamlou in that I don't think we have enough of a track record/info with Harden to be able to say this definitively about him. His first year in Houston he helped bring their win total up by 11 (from 34 to 45) and his second year he and Dwight helped bump them up another 9 (45 to 54). That's a win total jump of 20 in 2 seasons with him as the #1 guy. That's pretty damn good.

His attitude is a bit off imho but these are his first 2 years as a team leader. He may figure some of this stuff out.

[white men can't jump]

Reducing the chemistry/leadership issue to being "chummy" or a good locker room buddy is a gross misrepresentation about what was said. The argument against a guy like Harden, whether or not it's valid, is that despite immense personal basketball talent, his impact on the overall success of the team is not that great. Basically it's a version of the Ewing theory.

If you're looking for a list of selfish basketball players who don't play a lick of defense and who were the #1 guy on championship teams in the NBA, your list will be very, very short. In spite of immensely different personalities and leadership styles, regardless of whether or not they were well liked by their teammates, it's pretty well recognized that guys like Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, MJ, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. etc. made their teams much, much better simply by being on them. It's a totally valid argument that some guys fill the stat sheet with personal skills that don't seem to translate to proportionately heightened team success.

I'm with willamlou in that I don't think we have enough of a track record/info with Harden to be able to say this definitively about him. His first year in Houston he helped bring their win total up by 11 (from 34 to 45) and his second year he and Dwight helped bump them up another 9 (45 to 54). That's a win total jump of 20 in 2 seasons with him as the #1 guy. That's pretty damn good.

His attitude is a bit off imho but these are his first 2 years as a team leader. He may figure some of this stuff out.

I agree with this. I was just focusing on the issue to point out that it's an area where DeMar makes up some of the gap between Harden and himself, and to show that it can be part of a valid argument as to why someone may prefer DeMar to Harden.

However it is definitely not something where I just write Harden off. Again though, I feel like he did better in the "follower" role in OKC, and thought that would translate into strong leadership when thrust into the franchise player role. To me it's felt like he's trending in a more negative direction since going to Houston...but he can definitely still turn it around.

[ddaylewis]

I remember not too long ago someone posted a link to a Lithuanian article interviewing motiejunas. He was talking about the rockets and how they weren't a true team, where Howard and Harden would eat meals at a different table than everyone else, wouldn't say hi to anyone when they showed up for practice or games, in general just wouldn't do decent human being/teammate things.

I think it's safe to say his teammates don't like him.

All that efficient scoring aside, the fact that he is such a douche is the reason some (maybe even most) Toronto sports fans would rather have Demar. He's a "Toronto" guy.

It becomes even more amplified when you compare the recent "success" of the rockets to some other teams who are known to play for each other (blazers, spurs come to mind).

That entire story was a product of shoddy translating from a radio interview.

http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/551419

[Pong]

shaq

Firstly, I should probably elaborate that I meant it from a GM perspective. If I was asked to choose between 2 players, a guy who is flat out better but is a douche and a guy who's a good locker room guy but significantly less talented, I'd take the guy with talent.

Second, Shaq can complain all he wants but they won rings together already so who really cares lol.

[planetmars]

Adding my two cents to this discussion.. but Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were all a$$holes.. and all three were former MVP's and have won championships.. this league is all about talent. If you are good you can win despite how bad of a teammate you are.

Harden was still able to average more than 6 assists per game last season despite being such a bad teammate.

DeMar is going to be an ironman in this league though.. so there will be a time when DeMar is better than Harden but it will be when they are both old vets.. and by then it doesn't really matter if DeMar surpasses him.

[S.R.]

Adding my two cents to this discussion.. but Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were all a$$holes.. and all three were former MVP's and have won championships.. this league is all about talent. If you are good you can win despite how bad of a teammate you are.

Harden was still able to average more than 6 assists per game last season despite being such a bad teammate.

DeMar is going to be an ironman in this league though.. so there will be a time when DeMar is better than Harden but it will be when they are both old vets.. and by then it doesn't really matter if DeMar surpasses him.

Again though, it's not about likability - at all. It's about whether or not your presence elevates the play of your teammates.

MJ clearly pushed his teammates; it didn't mater if anybody liked him or not. And this discussion is one of the basic knocks on Wilt - in spite of immense personal talent, he didn't win nearly as much as guys like Kareem or Russel. A lot of people will argue one of the reasons for that was Wilt's selfishness/mentality.

[Pong]

Reducing the chemistry/leadership issue to being "chummy" or a good locker room buddy is a gross misrepresentation about what was said. The argument against a guy like Harden, whether or not it's valid, is that despite immense personal basketball talent, his impact on the overall success of the team is not that great. Basically it's a version of the Ewing theory.

If you're looking for a list of selfish basketball players who don't play a lick of defense and who were the #1 guy on championship teams in the NBA, your list will be very, very short. In spite of immensely different personalities and leadership styles, regardless of whether or not they were well liked by their teammates, it's pretty well recognized that guys like Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, MJ, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. etc. made their teams much, much better simply by being on them. It's a totally valid argument that some guys fill the stat sheet with personal skills that don't seem to translate to proportionately heightened team success.

I'm with willamlou in that I don't think we have enough of a track record/info with Harden to be able to say this definitively about him. His first year in Houston he helped bring their win total up by 11 (from 34 to 45) and his second year he and Dwight helped bump them up another 9 (45 to 54). That's a win total jump of 20 in 2 seasons with him as the #1 guy. That's pretty damn good.

His attitude is a bit off imho but these are his first 2 years as a team leader. He may figure some of this stuff out.

Let's take a step back a bit here. At the core of my argument is that if we're to pick a guy with talent but is an asshole vs a guy who far an away from that but is a good team mate, i'd take talent any day. If we're to talk about a guy's impact on the overall success of a team, talent is a major contributor of that. Harden may not have proved this yet, but he has much more of a chance to do so than say Derozan if he was on that team. And if Harden was on the Raptors instead of derozan, I'll bet you this team would be even better than they are now (don't want to knock DD but that's reality).

[S.R.]

Let's take a step back a bit here. At the core of my argument is that if we're to pick a guy with talent but is an asshole vs a guy who far an away from that but is a good team mate, i'd take talent any day. If we're to talk about a guy's impact on the overall success of a team, talent is a major contributor of that. Harden may not have proved this yet, but he has much more of a chance to do so than say Derozan if he was on that team. And if Harden was on the Raptors instead of derozan, I'll bet you this team would be even better than they are now (don't want to knock DD but that's reality).

We're confusing being likeable with making your teammates better. Not the same thing at all.

[white men can't jump]

Adding my two cents to this discussion.. but Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were all a$$holes.. and all three were former MVP's and have won championships.. this league is all about talent. If you are good you can win despite how bad of a teammate you are.

Harden was still able to average more than 6 assists per game last season despite being such a bad teammate.

DeMar is going to be an ironman in this league though.. so there will be a time when DeMar is better than Harden but it will be when they are both old vets.. and by then it doesn't really matter if DeMar surpasses him.

I don't really agree with this at all...again, it's not about being a "nice guy". That's not what makes every leader. You can be an asshole as long as you buy into the team game. You can put up big numbers, including assists, and still play "the wrong way", which is the kind of stuff Jordan was doing early in his career. The change came when he realized, with Jackson's help/guidance, that he had to sacrifice. That he had to set an example his teammates would follow on the court, even if he was still an asshole off the court.

Harden's not there yet. And I definitely think if he needs a kick in the butt from a coach/teammate to get there, McHale and Howard are not the right guys.

[Pong]

We're confusing being likeable with making your teammates better. Not the same thing at all.

No i get your argument. What I said is that Harden has more talent than DD and hence he has much more of a chance to help the team win or make team mates better. Harden may be a more selfish player but he is a much better playmaker/passer and he also has the assist totals to show for it. And because of his talent, even though if he's not there yet, he has much more of a chance to become a good leader.

And if we're on the topic of 'making team mates better', how much impact does DD have on his team mates? We've talked enough about Harden and what he does, but waht about DD? It's not like he's ahead of Harden in that area either... Think about it, we've had DD for years. Our team was mediocre. Last year's successes had much more to do with Lowry than DD.

[white men can't jump]

No i get your argument. What I said is that Harden has more talent than DD and hence he has much more of a chance to help the team win or make team mates better. Harden may be a more selfish player but he is a much better playmaker/passer and he also has the assist totals to show for it. And because of his talent, even though if he's not there yet, he has much more of a chance to become a good leader.

And if we're on the topic of 'making team mates better', how much impact does DD have on his team mates? We've talked enough about Harden and what he does, but waht about DD? It's not like he's ahead of Harden in that area either...

This is simply a very large assumption with no basis in fact. There is no relationship between talent and leadership ability. In fact, it probably more often coincides with a lack of leadership ability in the NBA (again though it's not a relationship, just coincidence).

[iblastoff]

on the flipside, demar has always been a hard worker/gym rat/etc etc. has that really translated to making the team 'better' in the many years hes been in toronto? in reality, his own personal stats have gotten small bumps every year but other than that?

lowry playing out of this world and new players from sacramento instantly clicking on chemistry was how we got last years performance. vasquez basically credits his performance directly with being lowrys backup.

i'm sure derozans leadership/whatever people are calling it has had some positive influence on the team, but i have no idea what that translates to on the actual court.

[Pong]

This is simply a very large assumption with no basis in fact. There is no relationship between talent and leadership ability. In fact, it probably more often coincides with a lack of leadership ability in the NBA (again though it's not a relationship, just coincidence).

True. But the talent is already there. Now he just needs to learn and become a better leader. Whether that's doable for harden is another topic of discussion. Whereas you can have all the great leadership qualities but lack the talent to really become something special.

And again, has DD really shown us he can make his teammates better? If that's the case, bargs and rudy gay would still be here. Okay, I admit that's a bit extreme, but what I mean is if we're talking about leadership and making people better on the raptors, I'd give that to Lowry.