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  • golden wrote: View Post
    Blazers are heavily targeting OG and Ayton to put around Dame. What's the best 3-way trade between the Suns, Blazers and Raps to make that happen?
    I suspect the Blazers have enough assets for exactly one of those two players.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • golden wrote: View Post
      Blazers are heavily targeting OG and Ayton to put around Dame. What's the best 3-way trade between the Suns, Blazers and Raps to make that happen?
      The TenForTheWin outcome would land us Booker and two first round picks for OG and Boucher and Flynn...

      However...
      If OG moves west... we should ask for both of Bridges and Cam Johnson
      OR
      One of Bridges and Johnson and an outyear protected 1 to 10 FRP.
      And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

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      • golden wrote: View Post
        Blazers are heavily targeting OG and Ayton to put around Dame. What's the best 3-way trade between the Suns, Blazers and Raps to make that happen?
        This year's OG trade talk is like last year's Pascal trade talk - it's all about the US basketball hype train trying to keep their readers' minds on basketball with a slew of what-if's, dreams, and the illusion of things happening faster than they actually do. The chosen what-if's are actually pretty interesting (why yes, Pascal would fit in very nicely with Steph and Klay or Draymond), but that's by design.

        Nothing happened with Pascal last year, though, and as far as we know, nothing even came close to happening. Why? Because the team's make-up is built around styles of play he excels in, and he fits the team's current timetable and direction, and that affects the value propositions around any trades. The proposed trades (which generally centered around Wiggins and Wiseman and the lottery pick held by GSW) did not have a value proposition that was close enough to sufficient, given the team's current styles of play, timetable and direction. From the Raptors perspective, it would have been the definition of a treadmill move; it would not have made us better in the short term, and it would have muddied the timing of any future window for contention.

        This isn't to say that Pascal couldn't be moved; mutually beneficial trades could probably be made involving Jokic, Doncic, or, if you really believe we can win now, possibly Durant - assuming both teams were interested. There are Pascal trades for players at the same level of talent that would essentially be treadmill moves, too, because they would muddy the waters for us (think Dame, or Bradley Beal). There are also Pascal trades where the fit with the incoming talent would be awful (think Karl-Anthony Towns) regardless of the other considerations.

        This year's OG trade talk is happening because, with Pascal clearly here to stay, he's the best value proposition for other teams to dream about: his contract still has term, his contract is low enough that moving a couple of smaller pieces rather than one larger piece would be possible, meaning that he could be added to a team's core to up the talent level considerably, his contract is arguably an underpay given his current production, his Raptors role has mostly been the very definition of complementary player, and he's a considerably stronger defender than most players that are actually traded are. (Portland in particular is being mentioned because this ticks so many boxes for the squandered-Gary-Trent-with-that-ridiculous-Powell-trade Trailblazers.)

        It's worth noting, however, that most of these things are also reasons for the Raptors to keep OG. The value proposition for trading OG, with his defense, three-point shooting (and more recently, his post scoring), contract value and term, and clear current fit within the team, does not make it impossible that the Raptors will trade OG... but it does mean that there is a relatively small universe of actual trades that make sense right now. (For instance, I could see a trade built around OG for Jarrett Allen making sense from our perspective... though likely not so much from the Cavs perspective.)

        This value proposition may change over time, especially if Scottie, Precious, and and GTjr all make big leaps this season, and especially if we land a player that can contribute for us with our MLE. I can see OG being part of a last-piece-needed-to-properly-contend trade for an expiring-salary player when it's time to resign GTjr and Fred, for instance.

        Right now, though, the value proposition makes most OG trades unlikely - and doubly so if we're only getting back a package with the third or fourth most talented player in a three-team deal. If there's a three-team deal with Phoenix, and we send out OG and watch as Ayton goes to another team, where's the value for us? Why would we do that?

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        • TheWaterboy wrote: View Post

          This year's OG trade talk is like last year's Pascal trade talk - it's all about the US basketball hype train trying to keep their readers' minds on basketball with a slew of what-if's, dreams, and the illusion of things happening faster than they actually do. The chosen what-if's are actually pretty interesting (why yes, Pascal would fit in very nicely with Steph and Klay or Draymond), but that's by design.

          Nothing happened with Pascal last year, though, and as far as we know, nothing even came close to happening. Why? Because the team's make-up is built around styles of play he excels in, and he fits the team's current timetable and direction, and that affects the value propositions around any trades. The proposed trades (which generally centered around Wiggins and Wiseman and the lottery pick held by GSW) did not have a value proposition that was close enough to sufficient, given the team's current styles of play, timetable and direction. From the Raptors perspective, it would have been the definition of a treadmill move; it would not have made us better in the short term, and it would have muddied the timing of any future window for contention.

          This isn't to say that Pascal couldn't be moved; mutually beneficial trades could probably be made involving Jokic, Doncic, or, if you really believe we can win now, possibly Durant - assuming both teams were interested. There are Pascal trades for players at the same level of talent that would essentially be treadmill moves, too, because they would muddy the waters for us (think Dame, or Bradley Beal). There are also Pascal trades where the fit with the incoming talent would be awful (think Karl-Anthony Towns) regardless of the other considerations.

          This year's OG trade talk is happening because, with Pascal clearly here to stay, he's the best value proposition for other teams to dream about: his contract still has term, his contract is low enough that moving a couple of smaller pieces rather than one larger piece would be possible, meaning that he could be added to a team's core to up the talent level considerably, his contract is arguably an underpay given his current production, his Raptors role has mostly been the very definition of complementary player, and he's a considerably stronger defender than most players that are actually traded are. (Portland in particular is being mentioned because this ticks so many boxes for the squandered-Gary-Trent-with-that-ridiculous-Powell-trade Trailblazers.)

          It's worth noting, however, that most of these things are also reasons for the Raptors to keep OG. The value proposition for trading OG, with his defense, three-point shooting (and more recently, his post scoring), contract value and term, and clear current fit within the team, does not make it impossible that the Raptors will trade OG... but it does mean that there is a relatively small universe of actual trades that make sense right now. (For instance, I could see a trade built around OG for Jarrett Allen making sense from our perspective... though likely not so much from the Cavs perspective.)

          This value proposition may change over time, especially if Scottie, Precious, and and GTjr all make big leaps this season, and especially if we land a player that can contribute for us with our MLE. I can see OG being part of a last-piece-needed-to-properly-contend trade for an expiring-salary player when it's time to resign GTjr and Fred, for instance.

          Right now, though, the value proposition makes most OG trades unlikely - and doubly so if we're only getting back a package with the third or fourth most talented player in a three-team deal. If there's a three-team deal with Phoenix, and we send out OG and watch as Ayton goes to another team, where's the value for us? Why would we do that?


          I agree with everything except why not GTJ being the out going? I don't see GTJ making a large leap at all.

          Comment


          • I don't understand why everyone wants 2 get rid of OG..I wouldn't..if they really want 2 move him..it's gotta be KD kind of move..superstar return..probably would have 2 give more than OG..but if they are serious moving him..it's gotta b superstar player back, I would ok with that.
            "Never apologize for coming to me. Office hours are for patients.
            My kitchen is always open to friends"

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            • Dr Hannibal Lecter wrote: View Post
              I don't understand why everyone wants 2 get rid of OG..I wouldn't..if they really want 2 move him..it's gotta be KD kind of move..superstar return..probably would have 2 give more than OG..but if they are serious moving him..it's gotta b superstar player back, I would ok with that.
              Nobody wants to just "get rid of" OG. He's a valuable trade asset, obviously. People are just pondering different scenarios in the case where it may actually be true that OG wants out (maybe) AND other teams really want him (true) AND Masai/Bobby are open to deal him (true... everybody has a price). I mean, only the last 2 points need to be true.

              So what deals could we make to improve the team? The superstar upgrade isn't the only scenario to consider. It could be other priorities: like getting young players/pick for upside and longer term cost-control to match Scottie's timeline. It could be balancing out the roster to fix known weaknesses. It could be strengthening the bench. It could be a bigger trade that accomplishes all 4 of those. Enquiring minds want to discuss.

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              • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

                I agree with everything except why not GTJ being the out going? I don't see GTJ making a large leap at all.
                I have no problem with GTJ being the outgoing player in a trade (due to his shorter contract with a player option) or staying (as an upside play, which I think is management's choice unless they get a pretty strong offer).

                I was focusing specifically on OG, the Fischer report and all of the discussion after it.

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                • DanH wrote: View Post

                  I suspect the Blazers have enough assets for exactly one of those two players.
                  Don't they have cap space to sign Ayton outright? If they give him the max Phoenix probably doesn't wanna match but could try and force a sign and trade.

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                  • Primer wrote: View Post

                    Don't they have cap space to sign Ayton outright? If they give him the max Phoenix probably doesn't wanna match but could try and force a sign and trade.
                    they do

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                    • If the Blazers go for Ayton, that could open the possibility of Nurkic coming here?

                      Also, I would be curious to see if a deal around OG for D.Mitchell could be a possibility too?

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                      • Primer wrote: View Post

                        Don't they have cap space to sign Ayton outright? If they give him the max Phoenix probably doesn't wanna match but could try and force a sign and trade.
                        True enough. They actually have a crazy amount of cap space assuming they waive Bledsoe and an OG trade has say Hart as the salary centrepiece coming back. Good point.

                        In that case if the Raps even entertain an offer for OG, they should be asking the absolute world. Something like Hart, Keon Johnson, #7, a future 1st and they take Svi off our books. I still don't know if there is a fit there... Think the Raps would have to be internally motivated to move on from OG (which I don't believe at the moment) to sell him for even a quality futures package.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • Dr Hannibal Lecter wrote: View Post
                          I don't understand why everyone wants 2 get rid of OG..I wouldn't..if they really want 2 move him..it's gotta be KD kind of move..superstar return..probably would have 2 give more than OG..but if they are serious moving him..it's gotta b superstar player back, I would ok with that.
                          no one wants to get rid of him

                          Comment


                          • TomAmnot wrote: View Post
                            If the Blazers go for Ayton, that could open the possibility of Nurkic coming here?

                            Also, I would be curious to see if a deal around OG for D.Mitchell could be a possibility too?
                            nurkic doesn't fit us defensively.... if you are giving up OG then you are going to quickly have to find a deal for Fred because we are going to be going back into having two very short players on the court at a time... which is risky.

                            Comment


                            • DanH wrote: View Post

                              True enough. They actually have a crazy amount of cap space assuming they waive Bledsoe and an OG trade has say Hart as the salary centrepiece coming back. Good point.

                              In that case if the Raps even entertain an offer for OG, they should be asking the absolute world. Something like Hart, Keon Johnson, #7, a future 1st and they take Svi off our books. I still don't know if there is a fit there... Think the Raps would have to be internally motivated to move on from OG (which I don't believe at the moment) to sell him for even a quality futures package.
                              It would entirely depend on if they see an OG replacement with the 7th pick or someone who they really really really like. Josh Hart provides a lot of what OG does but OG is better.


                              I suppose the Fred trade would then be trading for Larry Nance and the 8th and filler.

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                              • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

                                It would entirely depend on if they see an OG replacement with the 7th pick or someone who they really really really like. Josh Hart provides a lot of what OG does but OG is better.


                                I suppose the Fred trade would then be trading for Larry Nance and the 8th and filler.
                                I doubt they trade more than one core piece. There's only a real salary crunch with everyone here.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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