Fire Masai Ujiri.

[3inthekeon]

Raptors are not at a disadvantage being in Canada vs USA. Every teams gets the same TV money from the NBA (so that's a BIG something from the US), then they get to sell to their local broadcast partners, of which the Raptors have a huge advantage broadcasting to all of Canada. Then there is money from ticket sales and Raptors are at a huge advantage due to the market size and affluence of Toronto. LA and NY are the only cities I think have a distinct advantage over Toronto.

Then why were the Raptors a bottom 10 team in value until 2013?

[Kagemusha]

Then why were the Raptors a bottom 10 team in value until 2013?

Young team.
No question Masai was instrumental in the Raptors success.
But he'd been inadequate since the chip.

[Primer]

Then why were the Raptors a bottom 10 team in value until 2013?

Piss poor management.

I give full credit to Masai for turning things around, I was just objecting to the idea we are at a disadvantage being in Canada.

The Raptors should easily be a top 10 market value NBA team, probably higher.

[LJ2]

I am not totally sold on both, tbh.
Scottie and RJ is just another Scottie-Pascal all over again. Two players that play the same position.

As for IQ, he can even choose to play with Wemby next season.
Or we end up overpaying him.

Just my opinion obviously, but if Scottie makes a star turn like the franchise is counting on, none of those concerns will matter. Masai mentioned it a couple times in his presser that they are lucky that they are starting the rebuilding process with the hardest piece already acquired. They have full faith in Scottie becoming a top 10 type of player.

[golden]

Yet the Raptors went from 21st to 9th in a decade under Masai's leadership. Who's to say they don't remain in the 20's if Masai was never hired? If you are looking for more than 9th then that's fine. But I think being top 10 is pretty awesome considering they get nothing from the US and basketball was considered a fringe sport for the longest time here in this country (again before Masai took over).

Relative to TAM & local competition, Raptors should be #1 by a comfortable margin. #9 is vastly underperforming. Their franchise valuation multiple increase is similar to a completely mis-managed franchise in a tiny market with lots of competition. And those are just estimates from media outlets and outside consultants with the order of magnitude estimates in the multiple billions, making the rankings meaningless... we have no idea what the actual franchise valuation is until it gets sold, like the Hornets actually did. Heck, Raps could even be #1 and that would be impressive.

So, we could've easily just kept Colangelo and still be valued at a baseline of $3B+ just based off the league revenue from media deals & sponsorships, etc.... and MLSE would still be thrilled with that. The NBA marketing machine tide is lifting all boats. And as we now know, the consecutive winning years were due to Lowry, DD, JV & Casey.... all brought in by BC. The only here question is: what is Masai's true adder to valuation because had the balls to go for a chip vs. another GM/POBO? Maybe nothing? Maybe $100M? Sure, not chump change... but we have no idea.

[golden]

Then why were the Raptors a bottom 10 team in value until 2013?

The demographic of Canada has changed a lot in the last 20-30 years. It's not just a white hockey country anymore. Raptors benefited tremendously from that.

[golden]

Then why were the Raptors a bottom 10 team in value until 2013?

I also don't think you're getting the basic math here. Ranking is irrelevant, considering the orders of magnitude and the fact that it's an outside estimate.

Hornets franchise value increased by 9X in a saturated tiny market. Raps valuation increased by 10X in massive, untapped market. Hornets blow the Raps out of the water, in terms of realizing their TAM (total accessible market).

But really, both teams are just benefiting from the NBA deals and overall valuation increases. Has very little to do with Masai or MJ.

[LJ2]

I also don't think you're getting the basic math here. Ranking is irrelevant, considering the orders of magnitude and the fact that it's an outside estimate.

Hornets franchise value increased by 9X in a saturated tiny market. Raps valuation increased by 10X in massive, untapped market. Hornets blow the Raps out of the water, in terms of realizing their TAM (total accessible market).

But really, both teams are just benefiting from the NBA deals and overall valuation increases. Has very little to do with Masai or MJ.

These sort of comparisons aren't easy to make in a fair way. North Carolina alone has a population of 8M+, South another 5M+ and then any other local cities/states whose closest NBA affiliation are the Hornets. And these are basketball/football fans for the most part. If there was a way to compare the land mass around Charlotte which would be affiliated being a fan of the Hornets the population density alone would likely blow away the population of basketball fans in all of Canada. I wouldn't doubt it could dwarf the population of Canada, full stop.

[3inthekeon]

I also don't think you're getting the basic math here. Ranking is irrelevant, considering the orders of magnitude and the fact that it's an outside estimate.

Hornets franchise value increased by 9X in a saturated tiny market. Raps valuation increased by 10X in massive, untapped market. Hornets blow the Raps out of the water, in terms of realizing their TAM (total accessible market).

But really, both teams are just benefiting from the NBA deals and overall valuation increases. Has very little to do with Masai or MJ.

So we should ignore Forbes and listen to you, because we don't understand basic math. Basketball is huge in the Carolinas. It never was in Toronto or Canada. That's hockey. As for saturation, that's again something you just made up.

Yes Charlotte is a smaller market, but about 7 others are smaller. Back in 2013, they were ranked 29th in value. But smaller market San Antonio was 10th. Might that have had anything to do with their perennial success at the time?

Anyway, I made my point much earlier and am done with this subject..

[golden]

These sort of comparisons aren't easy to make in a fair way. North Carolina alone has a population of 8M+, South another 5M+ and then any other local cities/states whose closest NBA affiliation are the Hornets. And these are basketball/football fans for the most part. If there was a way to compare the land mass around Charlotte which would be affiliated being a fan of the Hornets the population density alone would likely blow away the population of basketball fans in all of Canada. I wouldn't doubt it could dwarf the population of Canada, full stop.

Take a wild guess who the most popular NBA team in North Carolina is?

Yep, you got it..... Lakers. Just like another 20 US states. US franchises have waaaaaay more competition for sports fan dollars than up here. Canada is like a pristine untapped market, especially the GTA. American entrepreneurs would clean up if they had access to the Canadian market. In fact, Raptors did hire an American entrepreneur who set the team on the right path... his name was Tim Lieweke. If you want to point to one guy (which you shouldn't) for re-setting the current vision, it was Tim Lieweke.... who hired Masai.

Back to your point about fair comparisons. In reality, Charlotte's actual TAM is really just the city of Charlotte... which is around 2.2M.

[DanH]

Relative to TAM & local competition, Raptors should be #1 by a comfortable margin. #9 is vastly underperforming. Their franchise valuation multiple increase is similar to a completely mis-managed franchise in a tiny market with lots of competition. And those are just estimates from media outlets and outside consultants with the order of magnitude estimates in the multiple billions, making the rankings meaningless... we have no idea what the actual franchise valuation is until it gets sold, like the Hornets actually did. Heck, Raps could even be #1 and that would be impressive.

So, we could've easily just kept Colangelo and still be valued at a baseline of $3B+ just based off the league revenue from media deals & sponsorships, etc.... and MLSE would still be thrilled with that. The NBA marketing machine tide is lifting all boats. And as we now know, the consecutive winning years were due to Lowry, DD, JV & Casey.... all brought in by BC. The only here question is: what is Masai's true adder to valuation because had the balls to go for a chip vs. another GM/POBO? Maybe nothing? Maybe $100M? Sure, not chump change... but we have no idea.

Assuming Colangelo would be able to figure out how to take those guys he brought in and actually make them a winning team kind of requires you to ignore Colangelo's entire history as a basketball exec. Masai made the moves to actually put a functioning team around that core. Colangelo scuttled the Bosh era and got some high picks out of it and *shock* got a couple good players out of those high picks. Yay. It's about as safe as possible to say that if they kept BC around for the length of Masai's term, we'd be sitting down in the 20's as usual.

There is no evidence to suggest the Raptors should be the #1 NBA market, nor that being a top 10 market is "vastly underperforming." It's the highest they've ever been, by a long shot.

As for "have to wait until they sell" Tanenbaum literally JUST sold 5% of MLSE for $400M, which means an 8B valuation, and the Raps make up at least half of that value now (the NBA has completely outpaced the NHL in terms of revenues and the other properties are relative small potatoes).

[DanH]

I also don't think you're getting the basic math here. Ranking is irrelevant, considering the orders of magnitude and the fact that it's an outside estimate.

Hornets franchise value increased by 9X in a saturated tiny market. Raps valuation increased by 10X in massive, untapped market. Hornets blow the Raps out of the water, in terms of realizing their TAM (total accessible market).

But really, both teams are just benefiting from the NBA deals and overall valuation increases. Has very little to do with Masai or MJ.

You yourself are highlighting that a lot of that growth comes from the NBA national TV and sponsorship money. And yet are happy to use a simple multiplier for each team and say that they are leveraging their TAM better?

If you look at the 3B valuation as some inevitability from the rising tide of national TV money, then the Raps have pulled an extra billion out of their TAM compared to the, what, 100M Charlotte did? Not bad, by basically any reasonable measure.

[golden]

So we should ignore Forbes and listen to you, because we don't understand basic math. Basketball is huge in the Carolinas. It never was in Toronto or Canada. That's hockey. As for saturation, that's again something you just made up.

Yes Charlotte is a smaller market, but about 7 others are smaller. Back in 2013, they were ranked 29th in value. But smaller market San Antonio was 10th. Might that have had anything to do with their perennial success at the time?

Anyway, I made my point much earlier and am done with this subject..

Exactly, and it's not just the basic math you are not understanding. Forbes is using the simplest of simple valuation models, and leaving out so much important financial information as to be laughable. It could be grossly mis-calculated.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza...h=4dd8369c209d

METHODOLOGY

Revenue and operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) are for the 2022-23 season and are net of revenue sharing and arena debt service and include revenue that team owners get from non-NBA events at their arena. Forbes uses revenue multiples to calculate team values (equity plus net debt) based on historical transaction multiples for controlling stakes in teams. All figures are in U.S. dollars based on the average U.S.-Canada exchange rates during the 2022-23 season. The information used to compile our valuations primarily came from interviews with teams, sports bankers and media consultants, as well as public documents, such as arena lease agreements and bond documents

I mean, just the exchange rates and tax rates could change the Raps valuation significantly. Raps are unique, and not necessarily in a good way.

[LJ2]

Take a wild guess who the most popular NBA team in North Carolina is?

Yep, you got it..... Lakers. Just like another 20 US states. US franchises have waaaaaay more competition for sports fan dollars than up here. Canada is like a pristine untapped market, especially the GTA. American entrepreneurs would clean up if they had access to the Canadian market. In fact, Raptors did hire an American entrepreneur who set the team on the right path... his name was Tim Lieweke. If you want to point to one guy (which you shouldn't) for re-setting the current vision, it was Tim Lieweke.... who hired Masai.

Back to your point about fair comparisons. In reality, Charlotte's actual TAM is really just the city of Charlotte... which is around 2.2M.

Lots of Laker fans in Toronto too though and that doesn't mean they aren't supporting the Raps as well. Agree US franchises have more competition, but they also have way more population density. You seem to know more about this stuff but it seems like a pretty big assumption that the Hornets are limited to selling a product to fans who are located in Charlotte alone. How is it possible they don't have fans through out their state, and surrounding cities/states? I mean most anyone living in Toronto that are fans of the NFL are fans of the Bills by default simply due to proximity. Many Torontonians were fans of the Knicks before the Raps came along.

[G______Deane]

We've got a long way to go ourselves before we need to worry about what other teams are doing, is my perspective on the trickle down effect.

Not to use a phrase used by a former Raptor which obviously fell flat this season, but I want a young team that's "coming for heads" next season. I don't want them giving anyone any respect.

No dogs man.
The makeup of this team has a lot of nice guys doing Subway commercials, smiling and hugging at centre court.
Raps have been really easy to play against for years.
Virtually nobody "coming for heads" ....