Poeltl & Pascal - The 2016 Draft

[lewro]

Really?

Weren't you the one saying at the draft we should've traded Ross and the 9th pick(Jak) for Jamal Murray?

I was definitely in that camp. Let's just see if Ross plays well for an entire game, two games in a row (more like a season) before we decide that he is "new" Ross.
High picks are boom or bust potential. It's been 5 games. Yak is good but hes not a world beater. He's definitely got more foot speed and rim protection potential than jv. Sabonis has been good so far. I was in the sabonis camp but again it's 5 early games.

[SkywalkerAC]

Both just look fundamentally sound on both ends, but much of that is their quickness on D - Pascal switching onto guards, Jakob with one-step rotations into position, both getting off the ground to challenge with verticality (Jakob looking like a volleyball player out there, remember when we thought he'd never amount to much as a rim-protector?), and both incredibly quick to the ball off the boards.

A pair of triples for Masai in this draft.

[lewro]

Not what I said at all, but I am definitely saying that part of the reason you universally evaluate other centers on our team, whether it's Biyombo or Poeltl, as a massive defensive upgrade, might be because of Patterson.

Not that Biyombo and Poeltl aren't good defensive centers, but Poeltl also makes a lot of rookie mistakes.

So when biz blocked (foul bs) Bron he was standing on pats shoulders or poeltl on jameer/murray? Yes, Patterson is a good positional defender and that helps but doesnt change the fact that biz and poeltl can move their feet and protect the rim in ways that jv can't.
Yes, if jv gets a block through position and verticality it still counts in the stats but guys like wall will still come at him and be successful. If a guy like biz puts your shot in the 3rd row its still 1 block but you're gonna think twice next time. That can disrupt a whole offense. Not to mention the prior action is to move your feet and prevent the fga in the first place. Jv just tries to stay in front of his man and play position without fouling. Guys like Kyrie will feast on that, especially if dd and kl cant contain him. We saw this all day vs wiz and they're shit.

[golden]

Except universally, for two years now, almost completely regardless of the other 4 players on the floor, our defense is better with Patterson on the floor.

So it shouldn't be surprising that, given that Jak plays most of his minutes next to Patterson, his defensive numbers are great.

JV's numbers next to Patterson are also great.

Pat's a great glue guy and our best overall PF no doubt, but I'd be careful about using on/off as the be-all-end-all stat. Especially last season, when Scola (our worst player, by far) is the guy who was off the floor - it skews the on/off numbers. This season the "off" guy is Siakam, a raw rookie. Secondly, when Pat was on the floor he's been part of the Lowry + bench mob going against other team's benches, which usually aren't as good as the Raps.

[SkywalkerAC]

Oh, and setting picks. Both guys are already killing it with those fake-the-pick-one-way-then-switch-it picks (what are those actually called?).

[Chr1s1anL]

Both just look fundamentally sound on both ends, but much of that is their quickness on D - Pascal switching onto guards, Jakob with one-step rotations into position, both getting off the ground to challenge with verticality (Jakob looking like a volleyball player out there, remember when we thought he'd never amount to much as a rim-protector?), and both incredibly quick to the ball off the boards.

A pair of triples for Masai in this draft.

Don't forget about Wright.

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[Axel]

Oh, and setting picks. Both guys are already killing it with those fake-the-pick-one-way-then-switch-it picks (what are those actually called?).

Snaking.

[DanH]

Pat's a great glue guy and our best overall PF no doubt, but I'd be careful about using on/off as the be-all-end-all stat. Especially last season, when Scola (our worst player, by far) is the guy who was off the floor - it skews the on/off numbers. This season the "off" guy is Siakam, a raw rookie. Secondly, when Pat was on the floor he's been part of the Lowry + bench mob going against other team's benches, which usually aren't as good as the Raps.

But that's the whole point of the discussion - that Biyombo and Poeltl's on court numbers look good because they play more with Pat and less with Scola and Siakam.

[golden]

But that's the whole point of the discussion - that Biyombo and Poeltl's on court numbers look good because they play more with Pat and less with Scola and Siakam.

Actually, I think we're talking about how Pat magically makes every unit better, and using On/Off as the metric. The reverse could be more likely to be true: that Pat's On/Off numbers are inflated last season because he played less with Scola, since he was usually replacing him. And also because Pat plays with Lowry against weaker benches.

And you can't really conclude much from 5-6 games this year, although Pat did have a stinker tonight. Kings weren't even guarding Pat or Carroll tonight, and Pat's taken to driving the ball since he's lost confidence in his shot these days.

[DanH]

Actually, I think we're talking about how Pat magically makes every unit better, and using On/Off as the metric. The reverse could be more likely to be true: that Pat's On/Off numbers are inflated last season because he played less with Scola, since he was usually replacing him. And also because Pat plays with Lowry against weaker benches.

And you can't really conclude much from 5-6 games this year, although Pat did have a stinker tonight. Kings weren't even guarding Pat or Carroll tonight, and Pat's taken to driving the ball since he's lost confidence in his shot these days.

No, that might be the point you gleaned from the discussion, but the reason it was brought up was because someone quoted Poeltl's raw on-off court stats versus JV's, and the counterpoint to that was that JV plays less with Pat and more with Siakam, while Poeltl plays more with Pat and less with Siakam (and similarly with Biz and Scola last year). Whether Pat is magically good or he's just better than the alternatives, or is just playing easier minutes, the point remains the same - the centres are playing imbalanced minutes with the best performing PF on the roster and that is impacting their on court numbers (as are other factors you point out like getting minutes with the very good Lowry-or-DD bench units against inferior competition).

[slaw]

But that's the whole point of the discussion - that Biyombo and Poeltl's on court numbers look good because they play more with Pat and less with Scola and Siakam.

Or is it that PP's on court numbers look good because he doesn't play with Scola or Siakam?

[DanH]

Or is it that PP's on court numbers look good because he doesn't play with Scola or Siakam?

He doesn't play with them much, and that helps.

Of course, he did play with Scola some last year. 170 full minutes, in fact. Scola's on-court net ratings with every other player ranged from -6.5 to +2.7. With Patterson? +6.7.

And he has played a very few minutes with Siakam this year (only 9) but in those few minutes they have a +25 net rating.

Kind of seems like playing with those guys wouldn't drag Patterson's numbers down at all.

Again, though. The discussion was about why using Poeltl's (and Biyombo's) on-court ratings to compare to JV is flawed, because JV plays with the inferior PF and the backup plays with the superior one. However we want to interpret that - Patterson is great, Pat is just better, Pat plays against lesser opponents, etc - it all comes back to supporting the idea that the context of JV's on-court rating is very different from the context of his backups'.

[Chr1s1anL]

Proud of how the rooks battled and defended last night.

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[McRealistic]

Will either of these guys be a starter caliber player in NBA ?? I don't think so.

[Demographic Shift]

Will either of these guys be a starter caliber player in NBA ?? I don't think so.

Poeltl yes...
Siakam No