OK. Markieff Morris a Raptor? Really??

[Wild-ling#1]

There's a big difference. 2Pat is mainly a spot-up shooter, and is a much better 3PT shooter than Morris. MM can create his own shot in the post, prefers to operate from 10-16 ft (where he is quite efficient and dangerous) and is a much better and versatile defensive player.

My understanding is, basically, that Markieff is a young starter from the tougher conference who plays a bigger game inside, is stronger on defence, but can shoot 3's well enough to space the floor. And he can create his own shots. The things I just mentioned are why he is a starter and, conversely, why we need another guy now that Amir is gone.

And we let Amir go because a combo of Ppat and Amir is not the same thing as having a legit "starter" .... meaning a reasonably complete skill-set in one body. And though he has personal warts (i.e. criminal charges and lots of technical fouls, which yo umight be wary of, or not so much) he also has the reputation of being a real competitor.

[Wild-ling#1]

I think Wild-Ling is just saying that since Morris has demanded a trade, a deal for him could be on the table... not necessarily that the Raptors have a deal on the table for him already.

It's basically just above rumour. But we do know that it arises from a radio report out of Arizona. It has not been contradicted or denied. And while there is no direct quotation, reporters at various, reasonably credible sports sources are treating it as something short of a complete fabrication.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Instead of trying to undermine the speculation, how's about dealing with the most compelling fact: A cheap, young PF from the west has suddenly - and very dramatically - just insisted on a trade. And in no uncertain terms.

Most agree that getting an upgrade at PF was the only thing Masai couldn't get done for next season.

There are reasons available to gainsay the acquisition. And Markieff is not LaMarcus Aldridge. But if you don't want to discuss the merits of the trade, maybe you could ... find something else to do???

Keep the comments about the topic, instead of ragging on fellow posters.

Besides, the poster didn't suggest any stop to the speculation or wild trade ideas, but rather made a comment when a poster mentioned that a trade proposed by a poster in this thread was the best offer on the table.

It's one thing to brainstorm and share crazy trade ideas, but we can't start talking about them as though they are legit rumors or real trade proposals being considered. We just all need to maintain some perspective, but it's certainly fun to discuss ideas, no matter how far-fetched they might be.

[Wild-ling#1]

Keep the comments about the topic, instead of ragging on fellow posters.

Besides, the poster didn't suggest any stop to the speculation or wild trade ideas, but rather made a comment when a poster mentioned that a trade proposed by a poster in this thread was the best offer on the table.

It's one thing to brainstorm and share crazy trade ideas, but we can't start talking about them as though they are legit rumors or real trade proposals being considered. We just all need to maintain some perspective, but it's certainly fun to discuss ideas, no matter how far-fetched they might be.

Really? So I'm talking about "crazy trade ideas" .... and "spewing garbage" and "talking shit"? Actually, if you're going to come down on that side of things, I'm now genuinely offended. Seriously.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Really? So I'm talking about "crazy trade ideas" .... and "spewing garbage" and "talking shit"? Actually, if you're going to come down on that side of things, I'm now genuinely offended. Seriously.

Many posters have made many trade idea posts in this thread. None of us are GMs, nor do any of us have any insights into the conversations that Phoenix may have going on about Morris, which may or may not include Toronto as a potential landing spot.

So yes, any talk about trade proposals is just us posters playing armchair-GM, no matter how realistic the person suggesting the particular trade thinks it might be.

Heck, we have an entire forum dedicated to pie-in-the-sky trade proposals. There's nothing wrong having fun with rumors, but 99% of this thread is based on nothing but our own ideas.

I'm not sure how anybody would be offended by that statement, but feel free to PM me or another mod/admin.


The main point to my previous post was not even aimed just at you - it was a reminder to all posters to comment about the topic, and to keep all the commentary about fellow posters out of your posts. We can all disagree with an opinion and debate the merit of an idea, without resorting to trashing other posters.

[Snooch]

I like Kief

And Turtles.

Just an FYI.

[mcHAPPY]

Can't see Morris coming to Toronto.


You have Masai saying JV is going to be more involved - yet he still had 303 post ups last year.

Many have been talking about Morris post up game - he had 363 last season. But reality is Amir only had 64 last season and PP 24 - total 88 at PF position (Hans not even listed meaning less than 10 possessions).

Unless the game plan is to totally change, where are MM post ups coming from? Is DD going to take less long 2s and contested ISO? OK - that sounds great then.

Remember JV is elite on post ups with 1.02 PPP and in the 88th percentile. MM, while good, is 0.86 and in the 65th percentile.



When it comes to catch and shoot, PP has an eFG% of 56.8%. Morris is 47.4%. Seems Patterson fits the other players on the current roster much better than Morris (kick outs on Lowry/DD drives, JV post ups).


Patterson is also a better overall rebounder but it is pretty close. Both are at 36% on contested rebounds. per36 Morris a better defensive rebounder, PP offensive with PP better overall - slightly.


Morris was a fairly high usage player in PHX at 23.3. Patterson is just 13.1. Assuming the post season presser by Masai was not lip service, a changed style of play that has more JV post ups and more team ball movement should see PP game as a better fit. I would imagine DD and Lowry continue their high usage with JV getting a bump and Ross being given opportunities off the bench.


When looking at WS/48, Patterson is above average at .137 last season with Morris under at .084. WP/48 sees PP at .172 and Morris at -.017.



Only area where I've seen a huge advantage to Morris is on ESPN real Plus-Minus on the defensive end (offensive is PP). However that is the only stat. Other things like opponent FG% at rim favors Patterson, DBPM at B-R.com favors Patterson.


Here is a quick statistical comparison from BoxScoreGeeks.com



I just don't see the value of bringing in Morris.... unless you have DD or Ross going out in the trade.

DD for Morris, Booker, and right to swap 2016 TOR/PHX picks - sign me up.

[mcHAPPY]

Can't see Morris coming to Toronto.


You have Masai saying JV is going to be more involved - yet he still had 303 post ups last year.

Many have been talking about Morris post up game - he had 363 last season. But reality is Amir only had 64 last season and PP 24 - total 88 at PF position (Hans not even listed meaning less than 10 possessions).

Unless the game plan is to totally change, where are MM post ups coming from? Is DD going to take less long 2s and contested ISO? OK - that sounds great then.

Remember JV is elite on post ups with 1.02 PPP and in the 88th percentile. MM, while good, is 0.86 and in the 65th percentile.



When it comes to catch and shoot, PP has an eFG% of 56.8%. Morris is 47.4%. Seems Patterson fits the other players on the current roster much better than Morris (kick outs on Lowry/DD drives, JV post ups).


Patterson is also a better overall rebounder but it is pretty close. Both are at 36% on contested rebounds. per36 Morris a better defensive rebounder, PP offensive with PP better overall - slightly.


Morris was a fairly high usage player in PHX at 23.3. Patterson is just 13.1. Assuming the post season presser by Masai was not lip service, a changed style of play that has more JV post ups and more team ball movement should see PP game as a better fit. I would imagine DD and Lowry continue their high usage with JV getting a bump and Ross being given opportunities off the bench.


When looking at WS/48, Patterson is above average at .137 last season with Morris under at .084. WP/48 sees PP at .172 and Morris at -.017.



Only area where I've seen a huge advantage to Morris is on ESPN real Plus-Minus on the defensive end (offensive is PP). However that is the only stat. Other things like opponent FG% at rim favors Patterson, DBPM at B-R.com favors Patterson.


Here is a quick statistical comparison from BoxScoreGeeks.com



I just don't see the value of bringing in Morris.... unless you have DD or Ross going out in the trade.

DD for Morris, Booker, and right to swap 2016 TOR/PHX picks - sign me up.

Oh and none of that bothers to look at impact on culture, technicals/sulking/whining, and the legal troubles.

Don't see enough upside to warrant not just sticking with PP.

[Snooch]

Can't see Morris coming to Toronto.


You have Masai saying JV is going to be more involved - yet he still had 303 post ups last year.

Many have been talking about Morris post up game - he had 363 last season. But reality is Amir only had 64 last season and PP 24 - total 88 at PF position (Hans not even listed meaning less than 10 possessions).

Unless the game plan is to totally change, where are MM post ups coming from? Is DD going to take less long 2s and contested ISO? OK - that sounds great then.

Remember JV is elite on post ups with 1.02 PPP and in the 88th percentile. MM, while good, is 0.86 and in the 65th percentile.



When it comes to catch and shoot, PP has an eFG% of 56.8%. Morris is 47.4%. Seems Patterson fits the other players on the current roster much better than Morris (kick outs on Lowry/DD drives, JV post ups).


Patterson is also a better overall rebounder but it is pretty close. Both are at 36% on contested rebounds. per36 Morris a better defensive rebounder, PP offensive with PP better overall - slightly.


Morris was a fairly high usage player in PHX at 23.3. Patterson is just 13.1. Assuming the post season presser by Masai was not lip service, a changed style of play that has more JV post ups and more team ball movement should see PP game as a better fit. I would imagine DD and Lowry continue their high usage with JV getting a bump and Ross being given opportunities off the bench.


When looking at WS/48, Patterson is above average at .137 last season with Morris under at .084. WP/48 sees PP at .172 and Morris at -.017.



Only area where I've seen a huge advantage to Morris is on ESPN real Plus-Minus on the defensive end (offensive is PP). However that is the only stat. Other things like opponent FG% at rim favors Patterson, DBPM at B-R.com favors Patterson.


Here is a quick statistical comparison from BoxScoreGeeks.com



I just don't see the value of bringing in Morris.... unless you have DD or Ross going out in the trade.

DD for Morris, Booker, and right to swap 2016 TOR/PHX picks - sign me up.

Morris is not a complete player, I think we can all agree on that, but he does bring a certain skill set we do need at a very good price.

I also think that with a bit of an uptake in usage that you would see a nice spike in his effectiveness overall. He was not used very well over in Phoenix and their guard heavy offense, and if we were to get him, but not change our offense then you still have a nice PF pairing between him and PP that can give you a little of everything based on matchups. We need spacing, then PPat, we need bruising then Kief.

But if we move away from our guard heavy offense and go more traditional with alot of plays through the frontcourt and go a bit more of a SAS/Atlanta type of offense then Kief could very well explode in production.

To me it is a low risk high reward move to try and get him.

[Snooch]

Oh and none of that bothers to look at impact on culture, technicals/sulking/whining, and the legal troubles.

Don't see enough upside to warrant not just sticking with PP.

I want both.

[Wild-ling#1]

Can't see Morris coming to Toronto. ....
Only area where I've seen a huge advantage to Morris is on ESPN real Plus-Minus on the defensive end (offensive is PP). However that is the only stat. .....
I just don't see the value of bringing in Morris.... unless you have DD or Ross going out in the trade.

DD for Morris, Booker, and right to swap 2016 TOR/PHX picks - sign me up.

I'm not going to respond with another obfuscating cloud of statistics. But how about this single stat: Markieff's ppg is 15.3. Ppat's is 8.0

So many are continually arguing that DeMar's usage is so high that the only thing we can do is to trade our all-star Shooting guard. Which you recommend in the same post.

Yet the idea of bringing in a bigger, higher DRPM and more productive, western-conference-starting PF (to go along with our new legitimate 3-and-D threat in DeMarre Carroll) is simply a bad idea.

There is a wild sort of inconsistency in this, I think. To say the least.

[Wild-ling#1]

In an earlier post, I also asked RR posters to consider if a combo of DeMarre Carroll and Markieff Morris might put us in the position to defend/guard star players Like LeBron and Paul Milsap. It's that that limits our contender-status, I think.

(While we wait for JV to take his final step).

If there's any chance that that might develop, we do it. That's the core of my view, along with the fact that he's a more productive young starter from the West.

[thead]

you had me then you lost me WIlding

PPG can be inflated or deflated depending on the role.

are those 15 efficient points? per game.

I can see a case for Kieff to come here I really can.

I would however love to see what Patterson brings to the team in a starting role this season

[mcHAPPY]

I'm not going to respond with another obfuscating cloud of statistics. But how about this single stat: Markieff's ppg is 15.3. Ppat's is 8.0

So many are continually arguing that DeMar's usage is so high that the only thing we can do is to trade our all-star Shooting guard. Which you recommend in the same post.

Yet the idea of bringing in a bigger, higher DRPM and more productive, western-conference-starting PF (to go along with our new legitimate 3-and-D threat in DeMarre Carroll) is simply a bad idea.

There is a wild sort of inconsistency in this, I think. To say the least.

Really? PPG is your argument?

You realize PP takes 6.6 shots per game?
You realize MM takes 13.4 shots per game?


You seem to look at each stat in a vacuum.... shame on you.


Nothing wrong with a high usage when your eFG%/TS%/PPS/WS-48 all warrant such high usage. DeRozan does not. He does not play winning basketball. Oh sure, 48 and 49 win regular seasons. But what happens in the playoffs? And who is the all-star shooting guard? Do you mean the former, one time all-star DeRozan?


There is nothing wrong with bringing in Morris but not at expense of PP or anything that would be considered a long term asset is all I'm saying. PP fits the team. I don't think Morris would.

Carroll is going to play the same role as Ross last season - he is just going to do it better. That is a poor argument, in my opinion.

Morris is not near the same level of Aldridge or Z-Bo or Davis or even Favors. The fact he started in the west means absolutely NOTHING when one considers the level of team success.


There is nothing inconsistent in my argument. High basketball IQ players who play winning basketball is what I am looking for.

[Wild-ling#1]

I'm done with that. But it was fair comment.