Everything 2017 Off-Season

[KHD]

By what measure was Dirk a top 5 player? He was barely in the top 10 in PER and WS and top 20 in VORP.

He was a top 5 player by the measure of "he killed it in the playoffs and won the championship."

I think the odds of Lowry putting together a great playoff run and getting that same after-the-fact top 5 player assignment are far better than the odds we successfully execute a rebuild and get a top 5 player AND the right core around him to actually be competitive.

Dirk was still extremely special that year though. I mean come on, the guy shot 52% on a usage rate of 29% while taking 75% of his shots outside 10 feet in the regular season, and followed it up by scoring 28 a game on 49/46/94 in the playoffs. It was pretty ridiculous. Dirk's midrange broke all the rules about "good shots" and defenses didn't know what to do with him.

[charlesnba23]

wewinitallthisyearendofthedebate

[DanH]

Dirk was still extremely special that year though. I mean come on, the guy shot 52% on a usage rate of 29% while taking 75% of his shots outside 10 feet in the regular season, and followed it up by scoring 28 a game on 49/46/94 in the playoffs. It was pretty ridiculous. Dirk's midrange broke all the rules about "good shots" and defenses didn't know what to do with him.

No arguments whatsoever. He was a defence-bending offensive presence.

A unique player, however, does make him a top 5 player. Except in the most subjective possible sense, in which case we can't rule out such a description for Lowry at some point either.

[KeonClark]

By what measure was Dirk a top 5 player? He was barely in the top 10 in PER and WS and top 20 in VORP.

He was a top 5 player by the measure of "he killed it in the playoffs and won the championship."

I think the odds of Lowry putting together a great playoff run and getting that same after-the-fact top 5 player assignment are far better than the odds we successfully execute a rebuild and get a top 5 player AND the right core around him to actually be competitive.

He was 6th in regular season mvp and finals mvp. Over the whole 2010/11 body of work I'd call that the top tier

Again this is not to say it can't be done. But we'd need luck and probably an injury or 2 to the opposition, namely golden state. If you're really gonna ride with demar and Kyle as your 2 best, we're still one strong piece away.

[Abbas]

No arguments whatsoever. He was a defence-bending offensive presence.

A unique player, however, does make him a top 5 player. Except in the most subjective possible sense, in which case we can't rule out such a description for Lowry at some point either.

We shouldn't be comparing Dirk's regular season with his playoff season... He is a HOF

For example,
Harden is having the better season but im sure everyone here would rather have Lebron in the P.O
Thomas is having the better season but im sure everyone would rather have Paul George in the P.O

[DanH]

He was 6th in regular season mvp and finals mvp. Over the whole 2010/11 body of work I'd call that the top tier

Again this is not to say it can't be done. But we'd need luck and probably an injury or 2 to the opposition, namely golden state. If you're really gonna ride with demar and Kyle as your 2 best, we're still one strong piece away.

Yeah, sure, mostly on the strength of that Finals MVP. Which is my point.

Pretty much every NBA champion ever has needed luck and an injury or two to the opposition. Such is life in a competitive league.

[KHD]

No arguments whatsoever. He was a defence-bending offensive presence.

A unique player, however, does make him a top 5 player. Except in the most subjective possible sense, in which case we can't rule out such a description for Lowry at some point either.

Sure, i won't say dirk was "top 5" on productivity or talent, necessarily. but i think there was a lot of value in the uniqueness of what he brought, too. Like we both alluded to, his mid-range shot basically broke defensive schemes because he would gleefully torch you from there (ask OKC).

Whereas even if Lowry and demar are better players, you still have conventional schemes to defend them. I guess what i'm saying is that i suspect a player like Kyle or Demar has to be even better at their games than Dirk was at his game given the circumstances.

[DanH]

Sure, i won't say dirk was "top 5" on productivity or talent, necessarily. but i think there was a lot of value in the uniqueness of what he brought, too. Like we both alluded to, his mid-range shot basically broke defensive schemes because he would gleefully torch you from there (ask OKC).

Whereas even if Lowry and demar are better players, you still have conventional schemes to defend them. I guess what i'm saying is that i suspect a player like Kyle or Demar has to be even better at their games than Dirk was at his game given the circumstances.

I agree. Thankfully, by most productivity measures, Lowry is at or above Dirk's performance from that season (though still falls well short of Dirk's insane superstar days from 2004-07).

I also think the overall team is of higher quality than what Dirk had back then.

[LJ2]

This "you only win with a top 5 player" thing holds water but if that's how you run your team, 25 other teams might as well tank. Or maybe 26 other teams if one team has two top 5 players. Westbrook may be a top 5 player but he's got a team that is totally built around him and him alone. Is that going to win a title? If you need a top 5 player to compete how do you get one? They don't grow on trees. So yeah. that's they best way but we have to think of another way. Maybe two top 20 players and two top 30 ones? Unless you are a good team that somehow wins the draft lottery, you have to think of something else.

I think they can win a title by being nearly as good as GS on offence and better than them at defence. The personnel for that is there. Same to get past the Cav's. Easier said than done of course. For some reason I think of the 3 clear contenders we would have the toughest time with the Spurs because they just seem to have guys that can lock up all of our scoring options. JV is the only player that may have an advantage, in that match up.

[KeonClark]

We can also ask the Sacramento Kings how hard it is for a deep stacked team with no global market superstars to get past the 3rd round when there's a shaq and Kobe or lebron in between you

[Other Scott]

Well I don't think the original Sacremento Screw Job will be repeated Keon, but I just might be naive.

Anyways by any measure the Webber/Stojakovic Sacremento Kings were about even with the LA Lakers in that 2002 season, and a championship was well within their grasp.

[SkywalkerAC]

How many times over the last 50 years has a team without a legit top 5 player on the roster won the finals?

Not very many. Detroit is the only one in recent memory and by recent memory I'm talking 40 years. You could even argue 2 pistons eras achieved it, 2004 and late 80s, but both those teams also ran deeper in their top 3-4 players than we do.

Not trying to be a negative Nancy but chances are slim with Lowry and derozan as THE faces it's just reality

San Antonio always gets overlooked in this regard - for one or more of their championships most wouldn't have counted Duncan, Tony, Leonard, etc. as top-5 players.

[KeonClark]

San Antonio always gets overlooked in this regard - for one or more of their championships most wouldn't have counted Duncan, Tony, Leonard, etc. as top-5 players.

Very true. But only their last one over miami imo. But then again when you have the greatest coach of all time, the greatest power forward of all time, and a core that had it done together twice before, it changs circumstances forsure.

Still, I agree. Add 2014 San Antonio to the list

[KHD]

San Antonio always gets overlooked in this regard - for one or more of their championships most wouldn't have counted Duncan, Tony, Leonard, etc. as top-5 players.

that's because of the "duncan is boring" mentality more than anything else.

[lewro]

San Antonio always gets overlooked in this regard - for one or more of their championships most wouldn't have counted Duncan, Tony, Leonard, etc. as top-5 players.

And now we got the white fundamental!