What star will be available this season?

[DanH]

I see Ibaka getting a couple of blocks a game (haven't actually looked at his stats) and that's about it. Where is this rim protection you speak of? His D has been more or less non existent to my eyes. Certainly his rebounding is MIA. He gives up second chances. How is that rim protection?

There's a lot of noise with at the rim FG% (it doesn't describe anything more than what happened, and isn't predictive) but in terms of his effect at the rim this year, it's... not great, Bob. He's defended 70 shots at the rim, and opposing players are hitting 64% of their shots there. Now, he could see the numbers swing his way with a bigger sample, but he's certainly not had much impact as a rim protector this year, even if he's doing a good job of contesting shots. He was a much better (but still largely meh) 52% last season with the Raptors, so hopefully he'd bounce back at least to that acceptable level.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure I buy that he's a better rim protector at C than at PF. This year with all of JV, BeBe and Poeltl off the floor, Ibaka averages 2.1 blocks per 36. He averages 1.9 per 36 when beside JV. Shocking drop off.

[special1]

Yeah I've been trying to make that argument since I got here but it's been largely rebuffed and people just call me a JV hater. The tune seems to be changing though slowly.

Welcome to the club. lol

Some of us saw this coming a long time ago. Same experience. You're right though, people are slowly starting to recognize it and the mob has dwindled.

You can still love JV and realize that his style/fit can be better off the bench.

The Milwaukee series is the eye opener and will be the blueprint moving forward as the trend continues. When our backs were against the wall, JV was moved to the bench and we took that series handily. That was against Thon Maker.....


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[golden]

Those are the same things I've been saying about him for years. Game is too fast paced with small ball for a lumbering, traditional C to play a huge role in. But man the negativity you'd hear back wasn't worth the debate.

Lumbering isn't the main issue with JV... it's BBIQ. He's at least as quick and more athletic than Marc Gasol, but Gasol's IQ is off the charts and always has been. That said, even Gasol is starting to get exposed in some matchups.... granted he is older now and was a below average NBA athlete even in his prime.

[tDotted]

Those are the same things I've been saying about him for years. Game is too fast paced with small ball for a lumbering, traditional C to play a huge role in. But man the negativity you'd hear back wasn't worth the debate.

The negativity mainly comes in response to that silly and overused blanket statement about Cs. A good C in the right system can still be an integral piece for any team. Maybe he's in the wrong system (well, definitely) or maybe he isn't as good as we once thought.

[Puffer]

I see Ibaka getting a couple of blocks a game (haven't actually looked at his stats) and that's about it. Where is this rim protection you speak of? His D has been more or less non existent to my eyes. Certainly his rebounding is MIA. He gives up second chances. How is that rim protection?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Those are the same things I've been saying about him for years. Game is too fast paced with small ball for a lumbering, traditional C to play a huge role in. But man the negativity you'd hear back wasn't worth the debate.

Yeah I've been trying to make that argument since I got here but it's been largely rebuffed and people just call me a JV hater. The tune seems to be changing though slowly.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Those are the same things I've been saying about him for years. Game is too fast paced with small ball for a lumbering, traditional C to play a huge role in. But man the negativity you'd hear back wasn't worth the debate.

Yeah I've been trying to make that argument since I got here but it's been largely rebuffed and people just call me a JV hater. The tune seems to be changing though slowly.

[LJ2]

It's not that he's too slow to play in today's game. He just needs to be deployed strategically. For us I think that means coming off the bench. He has uses. He finishes great around the basket, doesn't miss free throws very often, rebounds well on both ends. Problem is his defense is fucking terrible so he can't anchor a starting unit. And combined with that Ibaka can't defend well at the 4, especially since it takes his best attribute defensively (rim protection, shot blocking) away because almost all the 4s in the league nowadays are stretch 4s that pull him way out of the paint.

Those are the same things I've been saying about him for years. Game is too fast paced with small ball for a lumbering, traditional C to play a huge role in. But man the negativity you'd hear back wasn't worth the debate.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

So everyone finally agrees traditional C's like JV are too slow for today's game?

It's not that he's too slow to play in today's game. He just needs to be deployed strategically. For us I think that means coming off the bench. He has uses. He finishes great around the basket, doesn't miss free throws very often, rebounds well on both ends. Problem is his defense is fucking terrible so he can't anchor a starting unit. And combined with that Ibaka can't defend well at the 4, especially since it takes his best attribute defensively (rim protection, shot blocking) away because almost all the 4s in the league nowadays are stretch 4s that pull him way out of the paint.

[LJ2]

So everyone finally agrees traditional C's like JV are too slow for today's game?

[DanH]

Yeah, so exactly. Poeltl is none of those things, which was my point. A subset of centres are being phased out, and regardless of their value on the court, are going to have very limited trade value.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

What kind of skills? Big man with post moves who suck at defense are kinda dying out. Skilled bigs who can dribble, pass and shoot always were in demand. Even if they suck at D.

Bingo. That's where the real value is for bigs nowadays. The type of bigs that teams want are basically in 3 categories

1.) Superstars (Cousins, KAT)
2.) Elite athletic rim protectors who rebound well and play great D (Gobert, DeAndre, Drummond appears to be this but the on-off numbers don't agree with that).
3.) Highly skilled shooters/passers, don't necessarily have to be good defensively (Gasol, Jokic, etc)

The low post guys who play mediocre defense, rebound well and can finish efficiently like JV, Vuc, Monroe and Kanter, still have value but in more limited roles, typically off the bench on a good team.

[Other Scott]

I mean look at Serge Ibaka, all he's ever really been able to do is shoot from distance and protect the rim, and he's a 20 million a year player. If you can shoot and/or pass you're still valuable.

[MixxAOR]

Curious, how would you compare a skilled center who is an average defender (rim protection, not great PnR, etc.) to a good defender, low skill rim runner type? Essentially someone like Kanter to someone like Gobert (not those players, just play type). Genuinely curious, cause for a while everyone wanted a DeAndre Jordan type and hated the skilled guys, but seems like they are making a comeback.

What kind of skills? Big man with post moves who suck at defense are kinda dying out. Skilled bigs who can dribble, pass and shoot always were in demand. Even if they suck at D.

[DogeLover1234]

I made another point in a similar vein where I said that some slow footed guys can make an exception to this by being so skilled offensively (shooting, passing like Jokic) that their physical attributes no longer matter that much.

Curious, how would you compare a skilled center who is an average defender (rim protection, not great PnR, etc.) to a good defender, low skill rim runner type? Essentially someone like Kanter to someone like Gobert (not those players, just play type). Genuinely curious, cause for a while everyone wanted a DeAndre Jordan type and hated the skilled guys, but seems like they are making a comeback.