Valanciunas needs to come off the bench.

[DanH]

In one game, the OG starting unit went from a 122 DRTG on the year to a 112 DRTG on the year, and +1 net rating. One more game like that and we are good, right?

We're dealing with a lot of early season fluctuation here. Especially for a starting lineup that has been broken apart and put together a lot due to multiple injuries, and has played one of the toughest schedules in the league (after the Hawks game have dropped to the 8th hardest schedule).

That's not to say I think there are no issues. But I think the issues are not really lineup driven. Heck, in the Indy game, they started the 3rd with that lineup to the exact same results they've been seeing lately (and which have skewed those starting lineup numbers). The starting lineup has its limitations, but they are really only insurmountable when they don't play hard, which is far too often and needs to be fixed. Seems like they found a little bit of fire against the Hawks but we have to see if it holds up.

I still wouldn't blame Casey for trying something different, just to wake guys up, if the doldrums continue. But I'd hardly advocate for it. No matter what lineup you put out there, if they have the approach the starters have had of late, they will fail. That mindset is what needs to be fixed, and if it comes down to a lineup change to fix it, so be it.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Idk really what other evidence needs to be presented, at this point I think people are playing favourites with their favourite players.

This is beginning to remind me of DeMar apologists before he actually got good around 2014 or 2015 or so on RealGM.

[DanH]

Also, the idea that a 115 DRTG lineup would be considered anything close to "league worst" is kind of revealing of a lack of research. Comparing a lineup rating to a full team rating considering the relative sample sizes and contrasting quality of opposition is a little odd, so I'm assuming the thought is that these lineups are among the worst defensive lineups in the league.

Like, we keep quoting the lineup that Serge-Siakam have played in next to the starters as having lots of success. That's true, and they've played all of 34 minutes together. If we accept 30 minutes as an acceptable sample for a lineup, there are... 31 lineups league wide that rank worse in DRTG than the TOR starting lineups. Including Steph-Klay-Iggy-KD-Green in Golden State, the 2nd most used BOS lineup, 3 of Cleveland's top 5 lineups, 3 of Houston's top 4 most-used lineups...

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Actually if you try to read and understand. I didn't say it's the worst lineup in the league. I said the lineup plays worse defense than the worst defensive team in the league. If you think a 112 dRTG is acceptable for a starting unit of a team that has any aspirations of contending I don't really know what to tell you.

If it was some mediocre or aging player playing at the PF next to JV and the numbers were exactly the same, you'd be calling for that player to be moved to the bench. Now because one's favourite player is the one who appears to be the source of the issue and the other guy isn't really an option to bench at all, we want to do nothing.

I get it, people have their favourites on the team.

[DanH]

Actually if you try to read and understand. I didn't say it's the worst lineup in the league. I said the lineup plays worse defense than the worst defensive team in the league. If you think a 112 dRTG is acceptable for a starting unit of a team that has any aspirations of contending I don't really know what to tell you.

If it was some mediocre or aging player playing at the PF next to JV and the numbers were exactly the same, you'd be calling for that player to be moved to the bench. Now because one's favourite player is the one who appears to be the source of the issue and the other guy isn't really an option to bench at all, we want to do nothing.

I get it, people have their favourites on the team.

So, again, maybe take it up with GSW's lineup of death, HOU's starting lineup with CP3, or CLE's starting lineup. I'm sure none of those teams have aspirations of contending.

If I had decided based on seasons worth of prior data that the aging player beside JV should not have started at all prior to the season, yeah, I'd be making a fuss about it every game. If I was operating off of single season data, I'd be less likely to do so.

As for reading and understanding, I tried that, but like I said in my reply, it makes so little sense to compare a lineup to full team ratings that I assumed you couldn't possibly have meant that, it would be very misleading and intellectually dishonest.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I think actually at this point the ideal would be to just get JV out of here, period. He's only playing 19 minutes per game the last 5 games and Siakam is playing just under 30.

Unless of course we're about to get another lecture on how Poeltl can't possibly handle the full-time center role for all of its 19mpg now?

[G__Deane]

I don't know what the best solution really is but one thing I'm pretty sure of. Within a dozen games of trading JV or one of the other bigs getting injured, we'd be more acutely aware of what we were then missing. I just don't trust Serge, Bebe or Poeltl as the starting C for 40 straight games ..... My eyes have seen they will be abused by more physical centres and I get that some don't agree with that assessment.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Didn't we start Biyombo at center and actually arguably played better with him there than JV? Biyombo's smaller than Serge.

[DanH]

Didn't we start Biyombo at center and actually arguably played better with him there than JV? Biyombo's smaller than Serge.

Nooope! The most used starting lineups in 15-16:

KL-DD-DC-LS-JV: 229 MP, 104.1 ORTG, 107.0 DRTG, -2.8 net rating
KL-DD-DC-LS-BB: 130 MP, 102.6 ORTG, 110.3 DRTG, -7.8 net rating

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Nooope! The most used starting lineups in 15-16:

KL-DD-DC-LS-JV: 229 MP, 104.1 ORTG, 107.0 DRTG, -2.8 net rating
KL-DD-DC-LS-BB: 130 MP, 102.6 ORTG, 110.3 DRTG, -7.8 net rating

Ah ok couldn't remember. That year it was pretty clear Scola was the issue. Now it's JV.

[slaw]

Nooope! The most used starting lineups in 15-16:

KL-DD-DC-LS-JV: 229 MP, 104.1 ORTG, 107.0 DRTG, -2.8 net rating
KL-DD-DC-LS-BB: 130 MP, 102.6 ORTG, 110.3 DRTG, -7.8 net rating

Biyombo was so inconsistent..... One game he was good and the next he looked like he forgot how to play basketball.

[TheDude]

Honestly the whole JV this and JV that is already boring. I mean everyone with a basic understanding of basketball gets it - Valanciunas has become a serious liability and a headache for this team and frankly, any NBA team he would go to in his current form. Sure, he might have decent offensive numbers (particularly points and rebounds), but anyone who has eyes and watches the games sees that he is struggling.. looks lost and can't keep up..

Let's face it, he lacks BBIQ (always did), lacks coordination, quickness and speed. Whatever he was once and was expected to become was mostly due to him being physically superior to his peers and dominating youngster international events. I obviously haven't seen him work out, but it seems like he just doesn't have that mindset you need to really establish yourself in the NBA. He either doesn't put enough work during the off season or he simply reached his ceiling.

I am a Lithuanian and it pains me to say, but unless a miracle happens, Valanciunas should just go back to Europe after his current contract. The game over there is slower and a dominant offensive centers are valued a lot. He did well, got himself a good contract, had some good runs, but I fear that his performance in the NBA is gonna get even worse with time. Trust me, most of the Lithuanian fans who give a fuck about basketball understand that. Hell, even on the national team he becomes a liability every now and then. His PnR defense is atrocious, he is a huge ball stopper and isn't crafty enough to really be a threat a centimeter further from the paint. No, its not on Casey, I mean how can you keep a guy on the floor who can't close out on 3pt shooting bigs? Extremely match - up dependent and even against bigs that on paper he should dominate its still a coin toss. No wonder nobody was willing to take him last summer, I doubt even Pop could make a big difference.. I used to compare him to Kanter who has good offensive game but atrocious defense. Well, guess what, he has actually improved a lot on the defensive end and at the very least doesn't look lost out there.

./rant but in all seriousness, I am having a blast watching young Sabonis play and I am confident that he will do well in the NBA, not so sure about JV..

[Scraptor]

This is beginning to remind me of DeMar apologists before he actually got good around 2014 or 2015 or so on RealGM.

By that logic we should absolutely keep JV before he gets good, and keep starting him. The apologists were right.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

By that logic we should absolutely keep JV before he gets good, and keep starting him. The apologists were right.

JV doesn't have the work ethic or ability to make that kind of leap now. And his issues are more difficult to address. DeRozan still doesn't play a lick of D, he just got so good offensively that he's a plus out there.

[Scraptor]

JV doesn't have the work ethic or ability to make that kind of leap now. And his issues are more difficult to address. DeRozan still doesn't play a lick of D, he just got so good offensively that he's a plus out there.

Which, if we grant that premise, is exactly why it's a terrible analogy.