NBA Playoffs! Round 2, Game 4: Toronto Raptors 93 - Cleveland Cavaliers 128 (CLE WINS 4-0)

[veda-parabolist]

Bogus. It matters that I can watch and get excited about this Raptors team and get enjoyment out of them through 6 months of my year. If you're all about the satisfaction at the end that's your decision but to me 6 months of fun is way better than being awful with hope that there's a 10% chance of a championship is 6-7 years.

Man, I personally admire your resilience, and I do like Demar a lot as a person, I think he is genuinely a good and well-meaning guy, and carries himself with maturity and respect. But I don't think now is the best time to be tooting Demar's horn. Let a few days pass and people will have cooled off a little bit. Right now I don't think there's a lot of good to be said for how Demar played these last couple of games.

[Other Scott]

22 year old Wiggins > 22 year old DeRozan.

The reality is we don't know Wiggins ceiling yet. I thought he had trouble adjusting being the 3rd guy in Minny last season. Last year he was terrific for them - averaging 24ppg.

But this debate really is moot. Because i can't see Masai trading DeMar. He better fire Casey though.

Wiggins has not improved anything in the past few years. That's the issue. He's the same player he was as a rookie and there's no reason to believe that will change.

[Truth Teller]

No one believed this team was winning a championship and no one tried to sell it as that. That's a tough way to be a sports fan. Not how I choose to do it because then I'll just always be miserable. I've been a sports fan for 20 years now and have never had a team make a Finals in any of my sports.

Then what was the culture change nonsense? Vegas had this team as the fave to make it out of the East a few weeks ago.

Also at least beat the Cavs once... This was sad.

[white men can't jump]

So you're saying Derozan is at the same level as Noguiera?

Vince killed the franchise by leaving like he did. The 2000 season was as great as it was because of Vince, but he also was responsible for the awful years between 2002-2005 for the Raptors.

Derozan has stuck with this team and helped power them to being a very good team for 5 straight years, they're fun to watch and a team that leads to the sports fandom that matters, not debating about tanking. He had a chance to leave 2 years ago and seek something else and leave the Raptors in a bit of the rough situation, and he signed immediately. It matters. That's important to the health of the franchise.

I'm saying that dedication is not a measurable reason to want to keep a player. Performance is all that matters. Sure, it's nice to be able to root for someone because they're a good guy, but the intangibles also only matter as much as they aid the performance of him and the team. We have plenty of other good guys who I'm sure will continue to show dedication to this team, even if we trade DeMar (which is not what I'm debating right now either way). And I'd be shocked if DeMar would get as much money from any other team, since they couldn't offer the 5th year anyway. It was in DeMar's own best interest to sign that kind of deal. Does he show loyalty and dedication? Yes. OK, awesome, DeMar is a good guy. Does that change that he consistently fails to elevate his game in the playoffs? And worse, can actually be a true negative in playoff games when he's supposed to be your best player? No, it doesn't.

And come on. Vince wanted the franchise to make a show of trying to improve the team as he went into his prime after the patchwork roster they built was falling apart. The front office was awful back then. They alienated one of the most marketable players in basketball history in a single summer. A guy who singlehandedly made the franchise relevant in the first place. Get over your bitter ex-lover syndrome. Does Vince get his blame for giving up? Sure, but lets not pretend he was basically given every reason to give up. You know what the Lakers did when Kobe threatened a trade request? Went out and got Gasol. Considering all MLSE cared about (even more so than now) back then was making money, that was criminally bad management to fuck up the relationship.

[MixxAOR]

Then what was the culture change nonsense? Vegas had this team as the fave to make it out of the East a few weeks ago.

It wasn't really to beat Cavs. We struggle on our way to Cavs.

[Other Scott]

Man, I personally admire your resilience, and I do like Demar a lot as a person, I think he is genuinely a good and well-meaning guy, and carries himself with maturity and respect. But I don't think now is the best time to be tooting Demar's horn. Let a few days pass and people will have cooled off a little bit. Right now I don't think there's a lot of good to be said for how Demar played these last couple of games.

Haha I'm just trying to keep everyone in view of the big picture. Which is this franchise has sucked for 75% of the time they've existed, and right now they don't. And I'm afraid if things get blown up they'll go right back to sucking for another 10-12 years. Then I'll be mad

[Truth Teller]

BTW Skip Bayless was right again. It sucks because I actually care about the Craptors.

[white men can't jump]

JV is a less mobile than you think he is but I don't want to get into a JV debate with you. And you really think Ibaka is valuable at all defensively? Love was blowing by him like a pylon tonight.

You didn't answer my question. Turner is not mobile. Neither is Sabonis. Good talk though.

[Truth Teller]

Haha I'm just trying to keep everyone in view of the big picture. Which is this franchise has sucked for 75% of the time they've existed, and right now they don't. And I'm afraid if things get blown up they'll go right back to sucking for another 10-12 years. Then I'll be mad

I rather we suck for 5 years with a chance to be like the sixers, than to never win a championship.

[KeonClark]

BTW Skip Bayless was right again. It sucks because I actually care about the Craptors.

They were all right. Shannon Sharpe, stephen a, Paul pierce

Every last dick head on tv that we whined about

[Other Scott]

I'm saying that dedication is not a measurable reason to want to keep a player. Performance is all that matters. Sure, it's nice to be able to root for someone because they're a good guy, but the intangibles also only matter as much as they aid the performance of him and the team. We have plenty of other good guys who I'm sure will continue to show dedication to this team, even if we trade DeMar (which is not what I'm debating right now either way). And I'd be shocked if DeMar would get as much money from any other team, since they couldn't offer the 5th year anyway. It was in DeMar's own best interest to sign that kind of deal. Does he show loyalty and dedication? Yes. OK, awesome, DeMar is a good guy. Does that change that he consistently fails to elevate his game in the playoffs? And worse, can actually be a true negative in playoff games when he's supposed to be your best player? No, it doesn't.

And come on. Vince wanted the franchise to make a show of trying to improve the team as he went into his prime after the patchwork roster they built was falling apart. The front office was awful back then. They alienated one of the most marketable players in basketball history in a single summer. A guy who singlehandedly made the franchise relevant in the first place. Get over your bitter ex-lover syndrome. Does Vince get his blame for giving up? Sure, but lets not pretend he was basically given every reason to give up. You know what the Lakers did when Kobe threatened a trade request? Went out and got Gasol. Considering all MLSE cared about (even more so than now) back then was making money, that was criminally bad management to fuck up the relationship.

Oh, I'm not saying if there's a great opportunity to move away from DeMar you don't move away from DeMar. I'm just saying in terms of the value DeMar has brought to the franchise it's at least as much as Vince if not more, despite Vince being a more talented player.

[The Claw Reborn]

We needed a new Christian

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

Or maybe it’s him.

But Christian though was a purist. He dedicated his RR career rooting for Derozan. Amazing resilience as well

[The Great One]

Wiggins has not improved anything in the past few years. That's the issue. He's the same player he was as a rookie and there's no reason to believe that will change.

Not improved anything in the past few years? he has gotten better EVERY YEAR. Last season he regressed because of his new role.

His first first year he averaged 16ppg. 20ppg the following year. 24ppg last year. This year it was down to 17ppg.

Compare Wiggins first 3 years to DeRozan's first 3 years.

I'll wait.

[sanyo]

Raps need to find a gritty guy -- this team was missing it in this series. OG may become that guy eventually, but he's not now.

[tDotted]

What does that have to do with his mobility?

He was able to show at the 3 point line and block shots at the rim. His defense wasn't the issue

Love with JV on the court: 30 FG% 16 3PT%
Love with JV off the court: 72 FG% 80 3PT% (LOL)

https://on.nba.com/2rnukZ8