Colangelo Ranked 27th Best NBA GM By SBNation

[DoNDaDDa]

did babock not trade VC for a rack of basketball & draft perenial benchwarmers in the lottery

Rob Babcock= David Kahn or MJ LOL

[vinnie_paz]

what about naming some of the deals & signings that worked out well if your going to be so quick to name the bad? sure some of the more risky moves turned out to be busts but i think that had as much to do with Bosh holding the ball far too long most nights. i still think BC has made some GREAT moves aswell, agree'd there less publicized & not allstar caliber but still were good none the less. the media loves to fan flames & if theres no fire they stay away LOL.

Anthony Parker= great signing+ quality player (not allstar but still)
Garbo= great signing+ quality player(too bad his knee exploded!)
TJ i thought was good at the time( gave him too much money yes)+injury history but CV sucks big time so was a good deal
Demar= good draft will be a allstar soon i think
trading delfino+ ukic for amir+weems= priceless
bellinelli hasnt shined but givin the fact we got him for devin george makes that ok
jamario Moon= great find ask LBJ
extracting 2first rounders + 14.5mill TPE out of Miami when bosh already said hed take less $= priceless
moving turkyglu soo fast + getting something that can be used+ on a short contract= priceless
taking a team that was absolutly horrible & turning them into division champs in no time= priceless

i know these types of deal dont draw the same attention or hype but were all good moves for the franchise.

hahah so many things wrong with this post...

here's a hint: out of the two 1st rounders from miami...one was ours from the j.o. trade where bc said hey yea we'll take banks' contract off your hands and we'll give you a 1st round pick.

[vinnie_paz]

Apollo maybe one day you will look at the objective nature of analysis instead of adding your subjective oppinion. Seems your good at taking a factual arguement and adding your oppinion. BC is above average GM and will make some good moves and some bad moves. As long as BC averages over 60%on his moves he will put together a good team.

name one good move that has won us a playoff round ?

what do u consider a good move ? when he signs a role player and that role player plays role player minutes ? is that a good move ?? lol

over paying kapono and then trading him for overpaid evans...is that a great move ?

or what about giving calderon/hedo/bargs close to 10 million a year for 5 years ? yea thats a really good move.

oooh he got bellinelli... wow... yup bc is the man !!

EDIT: oh shoot.. i forgot he signed pops and dorsey... these are some great moves... are we close to 60% yet ?

[Apollo]

"Babcock entered an impossible situation" sure sounds like defending to me.

It's not a defense. It's stating the truth. I think Babcock was a horrible GM but those who were using him as an excuse for Colangelo were way off base and I stated what really happened during that time and why it was not fair to use the Babcock era as an example. It's like comparing apples and oranges. My whole point about all this was that your arguement was flawed and not that Babcock wasn't all that bad. He was bad but his situation was entirely different. It was a lot more difficult. If the job wasn't bad at the time the Raptors wouldn't have had few choices such as, Dr J, who had never spent a minute in a front office in his life or Rob Babcock, a guy who had a lot of experience assisting others but was not ready for such a role... A guy who couldn't deal himself out of a one man poker table. It was a horrible gig and that's why anyone worth anything didn't come knocking.

He had every opportunity to grow a team "OKC style". All he had to do was unload VC, Jalen Rose, and Donyell Marshall for expirings and a few picks along the way.

Vince Carter killed any trade leverage Babcock had by demanding a trade and then tanking games. He even played up a fake knee injury(Carter had a horrible injury track record at that time) which I think was the last straw for Babcock. He blinked and messed that up. It turned out to be his defining moment and that along with Hoffa ruined him. It was a tough situation, a better GM would have handled it better but don't kid me here, I remember it clearly. It was a horrible situation, a nightmare situation. As for Jalen and Donyell, both those guys had inflated deals. Donyell was needed, he didn't need to go. I wanted him to re-sign but he left at the first opportunity and I don't blame him. Jalen's deal was one of those tough contracts to move. Long and inflated. Not sure how Wayne made the trade but he did and I was jumping up and down at the time. It was a coup. Moving Jalen's contract was not an easy task.

In conclusion, using the absolute worst GM in the league who created mediocrity out of mediocrity is not a good defense for our current GM's history of mediocrity in Toronto.

[DoNDaDDa]

O i forgot about about the hoffa draft LOL ya that one was horrid LOL

BC did put together the only Raptors Squad to win there division. id say that should count for something, & is far more then anyone even expected at the time.

we should just give BC some credit for the good as much as we rip him for the bad, thats all im saying

i believe he will be doing nothing less this time around.

BC finally will get to really put his stamp on this team by building around the franchise player of his choice rather than one that already occupied that role before he came here.

& I honestly dont think he believes Bargs is the franchise type too. maybe MG does but i think BC is a skeptic on that.

[Apollo]

BC did put together the only Raptors Squad to win there division. id say that should count for something, & is far more then anyone even expected at the time.

It does and he got lots of credit for it... Four years ago.

we should just give BC some credit for the good as much as we rip him for the bad, thats all im saying

I give him credit when it's due. I liked how he kept the draft pick and made a good choice instead of throwing it away. I liked how he moved Hedo for something of value. I liked how he got something decent for Bosh. I don't like the Amir Johnson contract but I do like Amir Johnson. I feel he had a decent off-season so far but he is no where near the top ten. He can't even put together a team that can consistently make the playoffs here in Toronto. Not to mention when he did make it his teams got their asses kicked. The sum of all part clearly shows that Colangelo has not performed well during his reign at the top. It shows up on the score board, in the standings, in the comments of players, coaches, media personalities and GMs, etc. He's a likable guy, very charismatic. People like that and I feel he would have a good career in politics where personality usually means a lot more than performance. For me though, I'm looking past that. I don't career if Joe B. Writer of Generic News feels Colangelo is a good GM. I don't care that only the Joe B. Writers out there praising him typically are guys on the payroll either. All I care about is performance. I haven't seen that and it's no suprise when you look at the big play disasters under his guidance. I'm not saying I don't feel he's capable of better but I saying he hasn't shown it in Toronto. For that, he has no business being in the top ten. Top 20? Yes, of course but I am puzzled how there are at least ten teams who have performed a lot better than his teams over the past four years, yet we want to leap frog him over them. Hell, there are GM's out there on mediocre teams I would rank higher than him because of the plays they're making which make sense and follow a plan.

[DoNDaDDa]

to say BC has no plan moving forward would just be short sighted & wrong.

Before CB4 left the plan was clear... build a winner around bosh.

he tryed, bosh had as much of a supporting cast over the years that LBJ has had & it never translated into success.

also the moves BC made all made sense at the time exept the amir deal but. also i cant think of many people who thought JO,Marion,Turk, would have been ALLSTARS in T.O but im sure no one expected them to have as little effect as they ultimately had.
prob. cause its hard for anyone to make a diff. on the offensive end when every play the ball would stick in Bosh's hand's.

exit Bosh

now were not even 1 month into the off season & BC has already made the plan going forward some what clear.

just cause u dont agree with his plan it doesnt mean he doesnt have one.

& im sure his plan will only become clearer as the season begins

[AirRaptor]

Who knew, before BC, that Chris Byatch was gonna leave the way he did, basically turning his back on the franchise, but most importantly the FANS, who stuck by his punkass and the franchise thru losing seasons?

Why are you hating on Bosh? It's Colangelo's fault he left! Any person in his shoes would have done the same. Either way, I'm glad Bosh is gone - why pay him Joe Johnson money ($125M) to be first-round fodder, at best? We're better off like this IMO.

[AirRaptor]

Andrea is a good first round pick we needed a center and he was the best one in that drafted class.

No he wasn't, because he's not even a center! And if you consider Bargnani a center, then Aldridge is definitely a center, a better one at that. In fact, Bargnani started at center for the worst defensive team in the NBA. That proves that he was not the best "center" in that draft.

I mean you have the number 1 pick and bosh just finished getting destroyed by howard 20 and 20. What do you do? pick up aldridge who plays the same way as bosh plus the same position or Roy which doesn't address your needed atm.

You may be able to justify taking Bargnani #1 over Aldridge and Roy, but you can't justify his extension ($50M over 5 yrs). He is not worth that kind of money. He is the same position as Bosh, just like Aldridge is. So therefore, picking Aldridge is not worse (at that time, even) than picking Bargnani. Before that draft I was hoping we would get Aldridge. I had visions of a "twin-towers" of CB4 & LMA, but we took Bargnani instead. I was pissed. And now you can see why.

[Marz]

It's not a defense. It's stating the truth. I think Babcock was a horrible GM but those who were using him as an excuse for Colangelo were way off base and I stated what really happened during that time and why it was not fair to use the Babcock era as an example. It's like comparing apples and oranges. My whole point about all this was that your arguement was flawed and not that Babcock wasn't all that bad. He was bad but his situation was entirely different. It was a lot more difficult. If the job wasn't bad at the time the Raptors wouldn't have had few choices such as, Dr J, who had never spent a minute in a front office in his life or Rob Babcock, a guy who had a lot of experience assisting others but was not ready for such a role... A guy who couldn't deal himself out of a one man poker table. It was a horrible gig and that's why anyone worth anything didn't come knocking.



Vince Carter killed any trade leverage Babcock had by demanding a trade and then tanking games. He even played up a fake knee injury(Carter had a horrible injury track record at that time) which I think was the last straw for Babcock. He blinked and messed that up. It turned out to be his defining moment and that along with Hoffa ruined him. It was a tough situation, a better GM would have handled it better but don't kid me here, I remember it clearly. It was a horrible situation, a nightmare situation. As for Jalen and Donyell, both those guys had inflated deals. Donyell was needed, he didn't need to go. I wanted him to re-sign but he left at the first opportunity and I don't blame him. Jalen's deal was one of those tough contracts to move. Long and inflated. Not sure how Wayne made the trade but he did and I was jumping up and down at the time. It was a coup. Moving Jalen's contract was not an easy task.

In conclusion, using the absolute worst GM in the league who created mediocrity out of mediocrity is not a good defense for our current GM's history of mediocrity in Toronto.

I think I've outlined several reasons why he was that bad. The NBA has proven that no contract is immovable, except maybe Gibert Arenas'. And Babcock had the opportunity to trade Carter before he demanded a trade - the trade demand didn't come until September.

Again, here's what Babcock had entering his time:

- 2nd year Chris Bosh
- Jalen Rose
- Vince Carter
- Donyell Marshall
- Lottery pick
- Mo Pete

Let's say he can't unload Jalen, fine (even though I'm sure it is possible). You have a 2nd year stud powerforward and you're looking to build through the draft. The first thing you do is trade away your assets for cap space and picks. Mo Pete, at the time, was an asset that could be traded (as can be seen by his 5 mil/year contract he acquired after Toronto). Donyell Marshall was definately an asset that could be traded, especially to a contender. Vince Carter, before and after his trade demand, should have at least fetched expiring contracts - Not Alonzo Mourning's buyout!

Let's low ball everything. Let's say you get a 2nd round pick out of Mo Pete, a late 1st round pick out of Donyell (in the 27-30 range), and a mid-first round pick for Vince Carter. All with expirings and/or small short term contracts. Now we have:

- 2004 lottery pick
- Our own 2005 pick, which will certainly be a lotte pick
- 2005 late pick (27-30)
- 2005 mid-pick (15-17)
- 2005 2nd round pick
- cap space!

You pick up Iggy in 2004, as is/was/and always will be the logical choice. Now you have a team centred around Bosh and Igoudala, and Jalen Rose on the side. Does it win many games? Probably not. But in 2005 you own 3 first round picks and are well on your way to a REAL rebuilding plan. Holding onto Donyell, as great as he was, is not part of a rebuilding strategy. Neither is passing on Iggy because you think Vince Carter will stay and return to form.

My argument about Babcock being bad is not flawed at all because he set the franchise back several years with the Vince trade (followed by Zo's buyout) and the Hoffa pick.

And Vince Carter didn't kill all the leverage babcock had in a trade. If you'll recall several teams were interested. Babcock killed whatever leverage he had left with his INSISTANCE that he get TWO first round picks. And that's why he fucked up royally.

If you can't evaluate draft talent, then you should at least be able to make good trades. Babcock did neither. Babcock will always be a bad GM, no matter how "difficult" of a situation he was in.

[Apollo]

I think I've outlined several reasons why he was that bad.

I think Babcock was a horrible GM

He was bad

A guy who couldn't deal himself out of a one man poker table.

the absolute worst GM in the league who created mediocrity out of mediocrity

And Babcock had the opportunity to trade Carter before he demanded a trade - the trade demand didn't come until September.

Rumors were circulating in August. There were rumors of Babcock trying to work a Ray Allen for Vince deal but Seattle wouldn't bite in the end...

My argument about Babcock being bad is not flawed at all because he set the franchise back several years with the Vince trade (followed by Zo's buyout) and the Hoffa pick.

I never said what you were saying was flawed. I said this was flawed:

Rating BC as a general manager can be measured in multiple ways. One method that hasn't been looked at is the record the raptors had before he became GM, compared to the record Colangelo's raptors have.

2003-33 wins
2004-33 wins
2005-27 wins
colangelo era
2006-47
2007-41
2008-33 wins
2009-40
Looks like Colangelo is above average GM to take a team averaging 31 wins a year for the last 3 years to average 40 wins a year over the next 4 years. All in all at least BC try's to put a winner on the court even if he does make a few mistakes along the way.

I even quoted it in the original post... Anyway, I got confused and thought DoNDaDDa had said it because he was so adamantly defending it... Either way, nothing was directed your way.

[Apollo]

to say BC has no plan moving forward would just be short sighted & wrong.

Before CB4 left the plan was clear... build a winner around bosh.

he tryed, bosh had as much of a supporting cast over the years that LBJ has had & it never translated into success.

also the moves BC made all made sense at the time exept the amir deal but. also i cant think of many people who thought JO,Marion,Turk, would have been ALLSTARS in T.O but im sure no one expected them to have as little effect as they ultimately had.
prob. cause its hard for anyone to make a diff. on the offensive end when every play the ball would stick in Bosh's hand's.

exit Bosh

now were not even 1 month into the off season & BC has already made the plan going forward some what clear.

just cause u dont agree with his plan it doesnt mean he doesnt have one.

& im sure his plan will only become clearer as the season begins

So you think trading for Jermaine and dealing a 1st rounder in the process only to turn around a half season later and deal away another first rounder for an expiring contract was a sound route?

You believe signing Fred Jones and proclaiming he's a difference maker was a sound choice?

You believe that signing Jason Kapono at the stroke of midnight on the opening day of free agency, using the entire MLE, was a sound choice? You think that was a better move than pursuing the defensively minded Pietrus, who has stated more than once how he would like to play in Toronto?

Anyway, I agree he tried to put pieces around Bosh to win games but the direction? He's been all over the map and he's traded away a lot of picks. Effort is important but you need to produce results as well. Where are the results? He's too busy fixing his mistakes to get results. I hope that changes.

[DoNDaDDa]

i dont remember BC proclaiming Fred Jones was a difference maker. he wasnt even BC's first choice that was john salmons who ended up backing out at the last minute. jones was just a piece to fill the roster nothing more nothing less.
pretty much the same thing Salmons would have been.

Kapono was signed to fill a need for 3point shooting & that offseason he was the best available & was the raining 3pt champ on allstar weekend. so he was just signing what he needed most b4 anyone else did. & there was takers for Kapono's Scoring all around.

Pietrus isnt that great. we;d prob have peeps complaining now if we signed him aswell.

i would have liked to see less picks delt away but lets face it, Bosh put alot of pressure on BC to make things happen, basicly stating all along that hed bolt if he didnt pick up HELP. what bosh really needed was an ALLSTAR Wing player not just supporting cast.

But Bosh wanted to be the MAN!


but now even bosh know's a franchise cant win it all being built around him.

thats why hes doing wade & LBJ's laundry in Miami LOL

[Apollo]

i dont remember BC proclaiming Fred Jones was a difference maker.

“Fred Jones addresses our goal of infusing even more talent and athleticism to our revamped team,” said Bryan Colangelo

Source: NBA.com (July 26, 2006)

jones was just a piece to fill the roster nothing more nothing less.
pretty much the same thing Salmons would have been.

No he wasn't. Many were slating him as being the starter heading into that season based on what Raptors brass were saying at the time. Parker ended up being the guy in the end...

Kapono was signed to fill a need for 3point shooting & that offseason he was the best available & was the raining 3pt champ on allstar weekend. so he was just signing what he needed most b4 anyone else did. & there was takers for Kapono's Scoring all around.

Toronto gave him twice as much as what the Heat, his current team, were willing to pay. Virtually everyone in the media was saying essentially "what the hell is this?" That signing got bad reviews from everyone at that price. Some suggested Colangelo was bidding against himself at that price.

Pietrus isnt that great. we;d prob have peeps complaining now if we signed him aswell.

Athleticism, hustle, toughness, these are all things Colangelo is saying he wants this team to be about. Pietrus is all those things. He's a very good role player who has proven to be a solid starter. He's a lot better than Jason Kapono.

i would have liked to see less picks delt away but lets face it, Bosh put alot of pressure on BC to make things happen, basicly stating all along that hed bolt if he didnt pick up HELP. what bosh really needed was an ALLSTAR Wing player not just supporting cast.

Teams make trades all the time without selling part of the future in the process...

but now even bosh know's a franchise cant win it all being built around him.

I agree 100%.

[Fully]

I don't understand the argument that Colangelo should not be held accountable for the failures of his most high-profile moves because he "had no idea that Jermaine O'Neal, Marion or Turkoglu would perform so badly in Toronto". All three of those moves had red flags from the start, and if Colangelo did not have the foresight or deductive reasoning to avoid them then he should be condemned for the moves, not excused because the players underachieved.

-JO had already evolved into a slower and more injury prone version of himself but still had the contact and attitude of a top 5 player in the league.

-Marion's production in every statistical category had dropped from his time in Phoenix and he had confirmed that the rap sheet on him was indeed true - he was a moody player whose effort was dependant on how good the team was and how many touches he was getting.

-Turkoglu was a prime candidate to regress once he had signed a big-money, long-term contract. He had spent close to a decade in the NBA and had only two seasons that would come close to justifying the type of money that BC gave him.

Being unable to recognize these types of issues is not something that BC should be pardoned for. He's the GM! It's his job to recognize this type of stuff! Colangelo is definately not the 27th ranked executive in the league but I believe he's made a lot of mistakes in Toronto. He's also made some good moves but I'd ultimately rank his tenure as a failure.