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Bargs' Defense Not Improved Over The Summer
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Last edited by nubreed000; Wed Aug 18, 2010, 05:06 PM.
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after bosh's injury in april
bargnani's rebound and minutes
bos - 5 rdbs - 38:50
atl - 6 rbds - 37:16
chi - 5rbds - 39:23
det - 7 rbds - 38:03
nyk - 4 rbds - 33:37
so where is this progression that you have mentioned ?
no bosh, why didnt bargs step it up ?
again, not trying to be rude, just trying to learn why you think bargs is destined to have a better rebounding season.
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Summer Boy Bargnani
again, not trying to be rude, but if you can help me understand how making a player the focal point of the team would improve their defense ?
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Without the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).
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All this talk about Bosh gone, and Raptors having to rely on Andrea's defense (or lack thereof), misses one simple point. Put a Noah type (emphasis on type), next to Andrea; add Amir & Davis, and you have a potent front court. Adding all that up, with a Noah type fetching 10 million (T.O.'s special wanna play in Canada price), and you have a player total ~ 25/26 million. Plenty of cap room to fix the 1 - 3 positions.
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To me, that's what seems more important than micromanaging Bargnani's summer. The trade deadline (and prior) has great significance with the Raptors - it's the opportunity for BC to exercise his expiring contracts, and TPE (30+ million - counting a number of players). It may happen well before the deadline, but hopefully for only a small portion (such as Evans). The deadline tends to bring out the crazies. Ainge knows exactly how that feels.
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RapthoseLeafs wrote: View PostWe can all agree that Andrea will not be the Leader type - as Jack is trying to initiate. But when a player is given responsibility to lead a team with his play, players do step up. Whether Bargnani will, is something to be determined. As a Raptor fan, it gets tiresome to defend any player on this team. Homerism aside, I would do the same for the young guns (or rookies) after a few years (barring abject failure). Every player has a role - no matter how small it may be.
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Without the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).
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All this talk about Bosh gone, and Raptors having to rely on Andrea's defense (or lack thereof), misses one simple point. Put a Noah type (emphasis on type), next to Andrea; add Amir & Davis, and you have a potent front court. Adding all that up, with a Noah type fetching 10 million (T.O.'s special wanna play in Canada price), and you have a player total ~ 25/26 million. Plenty of cap room to fix the 1 - 3 positions.
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To me, that's what seems more important than micromanaging Bargnani's summer. The trade deadline (and prior) has great significance with the Raptors - it's the opportunity for BC to exercise his expiring contracts, and TPE (30+ million - counting a number of players). It may happen well before the deadline, but hopefully for only a small portion (such as Evans). The deadline tends to bring out the crazies. Ainge knows exactly how that feels.
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and
are you suggesting that it is possible for the raps to acquire a noah TYPE for some TPE and evans ?
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RapthoseLeafs wrote: View PostWithout the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).
"bosh gets all the rebounds"
if he had made progress, i think we would have seen something in those games which the playoffs were depended upon.
do you understand ? if bargs made progress, and had the capability to lead a team, those 5 games would have been the time. and to not even have ONE game where he even hinted at double digit rebounds is the point.
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RaptorRoo wrote: View PostStats can be skewed and presented in a way to favour an viewpoint...All the Bargnani haters on here need to take a step back and think it through LOGICALLY...Why do you think he's rebounding WAS lower than it could or should be? Perhaps, it had something to do with a certain player that was the cornerstone of the franchise for the last 7 years who is no longer here...Bargs role was different then, and since bball is played by a team in a specific system you need to allow for that fact. In other words, Bargs obvious talent and development over the years is proof that given an opportunity in a more PROMINENT role (to score, rebound and get to the line) he will rise to the challenge...
Bargnani's rebounding is poor. There can be no debate of this. He was 79th in the league in rebounding per minute (for players that played at least 70 games or grabbed 800 rebounds). Considering there are only 60 starting big men in the league, that says a lot right there. It doesn't matter that Bosh was on the team. The Raptors weren't a good rebounding team even with Bosh, so there WAS a need for someone else to grab more rebounds. There were plenty available.
As for Bosh preventing Bargnani from getting to the line, the evidence shows that is false. Players get to the line at a certain rate whether they are the 1st option or 12th. That doesn't change no matter how many shots they take. I explain it in detail here...
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...-great-scorer/
RaptorRoo wrote:Tim W: What evidence to the contrary? YOU clearly stated that BC made a definitive statement (and you know what statement it is or in case you forgot go back your early posts), and I called you out on YOUR LIE. I'm still WAITING for your "proof" in the way of an actual recorded interview with BC making that statement. It's not slander when it's the truth...
RaptorRoo wrote:Tim W: What evidence do YOU have that Bargnani wont improve? In fact, you've already admitted to seeing STATS (and you included them in one of your posts), that have displayed his progression each season (with the exception of the odd category). This progression may not be astronomical but IT IS PROGRESSION. NOW that Bargs is the focal point of the team his role will OBVIOUSLY change meaning more focus also on D and better Rebounding. Why? Because HE is talented and smart enough to understand this fact and he has continued to work hard this offseason with that in mind.
Your claim that his defense and rebounding will improve because he's talented and smart enough isn't a logical argument. First of all, simply because Bargnani is expected to be the focus of the team doesn't mean his rebounding will improve. Rebounding is not linked to your role in the offense. Neither Amir Johnson nor Reggie Evans are involved in the offense, but both had excellent per minute rebounding averages. Secondly, your comment that he is smart, so will know to work hard has no place in the discussion and makes about as much sense as people calling him heartless. Neither you nor I know how he will react. It's a guess about something off the basketball court. When I judge how a player will do, the only thing I use is what I've seen. Anything else isn't logical.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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vinnie_paz wrote: View Postbut 5 of the most important games in the season for the raptors, and this player who some believe has made significant progress in rebounding couldnt even get ONE game with 8 rebounds yet played heavy minutes and didnt have the usual excuse of:
"bosh gets all the rebounds"
if he had made progress, i think we would have seen something in those games which the playoffs were depended upon.
do you understand ? if bargs made progress, and had the capability to lead a team, those 5 games would have been the time. and to not even have ONE game where he even hinted at double digit rebounds is the point.
Everyone knows what he did and how he stepped up, yet many of those people say that Amir couldn't do it for a full season.
So what we have is some people saying well we know that Bargnani didn't step it when Bosh was out for those 5 games yet for sure he will step up starting in 10-11 yet Amir who did step it for those 5 games forget it.
Sounds like ye ole double standard.
I don't need to repost Amir's stats for those five games. All real Raptors fans are well aware of them.
Yes I know that Amir played like sheet against the Bulls at the ACC in game #3 of the five. So he just has to man up and step up his games in games like that. Will he. I don't know but I do hope so.Last edited by Buddahfan; Wed Aug 18, 2010, 10:12 PM.Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
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“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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Vinnie_Paz: Who has "suggested" that Bargs HAS made significant progress in rebounding? IF you read the posts properly you'll find that some of us BELIEVE he WILL make significant progress in his rebounding THIS season. Being the focal point of the team will inspire Bargs to work harder this offseason to improve his rebounding skill set. Why do you assume his development has peaked after 4 seasons? As I have have stated before, I believe that Bargs is a late bloomer, and there IS plenty of evidence of some Big Men getting better after 4 seasons so why is Bargnani any different??? Or is it just Euro bias???
Why are you prepared to write him off based on 5 GAMES last season? Regardless of Bosh not playing in those games, he was still conditioned as a secondary player in rebounding.
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vinnie_paz wrote: View Postafter bosh's injury in april
bargnani's rebound and minutes
bos - 5 rdbs - 38:50
atl - 6 rbds - 37:16
chi - 5rbds - 39:23
det - 7 rbds - 38:03
nyk - 4 rbds - 33:37
so where is this progression that you have mentioned ?
no bosh, why didnt bargs step it up ?
again, not trying to be rude, just trying to learn why you think bargs is destined to have a better rebounding season."I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"
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RaptorRoo wrote: View PostBeing the focal point of the team will inspire Bargs to work harder this offseason to improve his rebounding skill set.......Why are you prepared to write him off based on 5 GAMES last season? Regardless of Bosh not playing in those games, he was still conditioned as a secondary player in reboundingRead my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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RaptorRoo wrote: View PostVinnie_Paz: Who has "suggested" that Bargs HAS made significant progress in rebounding? IF you read the posts properly you'll find that some of us BELIEVE he WILL make significant progress in his rebounding THIS season. Being the focal point of the team will inspire Bargs to work harder this offseason to improve his rebounding skill set. Why do you assume his development has peaked after 4 seasons? As I have have stated before, I believe that Bargs is a late bloomer, and there IS plenty of evidence of some Big Men getting better after 4 seasons so why is Bargnani any different??? Or is it just Euro bias???
Why are you prepared to write him off based on 5 GAMES last season? Regardless of Bosh not playing in those games, he was still conditioned as a secondary player in rebounding.
can you tell me where i have said that ?
why does it seem that anyone who even slightly comments about andrea's lack of defense and rebounding skills, to you it's like they have wished death upon the entire bargnani family and everyone in europe ?
my RR name is vinie_paz who is an ITALIAN rapper. no one has a bias against players from europe. there is another thread right not where many people are saying how much they would like to have marc gasol join the raptors.
so dont turn this into a racial war. b/c everyone knows that is simply ridiculous.
no, we are only saying that he has not made significant progress in terms of his defense, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.
im not going to waste any more of my time on this b/c providing facts, links to web pages confirming what BC has said, the VIDEO in the OP, and countless other arguments have failed to convince you that bargs is one of the WORST REBOUNDING BIG MEN IN THE NBA and all of your arguments ARE FLAWED.
and i am just going to leave you with this.
Rafael Arajuo's ROOKIE SEASON (2004-2005) he averaged 9.0 rebounds per 36 minutes
Andrea Bargnani's FOURTH SEASON (2009-2010) he averaged 6.3 rebounds per 36 minutes.
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RaptorRoo wrote: View PostBeing the focal point of the team will inspire Bargs to work harder this offseason to improve his rebounding skill set.
why wouldnt he just work as hard as he could on improving his rebounding whether he is the focal point or not ?
so what if bosh was still here bargs WOULDNT WORK ON HIS REBOUNDING AS HARD ??
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Now I'm not bored
Man, you can spot a Bargnani supporter a mile away.
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I like the Raps. I'm a Jay fan as well. Argo one, for those who can't handle liking something as close to Canadian as possible. And as far back as I can remember (before yesterday) I have been a Leaf fan - loyalty means having to eat Kraft Dinner for a long time, hoping someday, filet mignon will show up. But since I can't remember what that tastes like - I was there, but at an age that I didn't know better - I'll just have to imagine.
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I have been through the unknown Coach, with Sir Ballard. And experienced the Maple Leaf version of the Gong Show with "Chucky Chucky Chucky .. let's be a horse together. I'll be the front, and you just be yourself".
You had to be there.
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I will never boo Bosh, nor have I really booed VC. Maybe a little, but like Ex's, get over it. Or get out of my way. Vince put us, as a basketball entity, on the map. And I have always considered him the best Raptor. He is what brought me to basketball. He was flash, and no matter what, I liked when he put it all out there. Trouble was, as I remember, mom had too much say.
Damn mothers.
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When I say I'm a fan of Bargnani, I mean a fan. If some think that's deranged, that I'm deranged. I'm also a PC supporter - but of course, that doesn't mean I support hillbilly Reform ideas.
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again, not trying to be rude, but if you can help me understand how making a player the focal point of the team would improve their defense ?
You wondered why I used your above quote. Only a small part of my post was really directed at that. And for the part that was, this pretty much sums it up: when a player is given responsibility to lead a team with his play, players do step up. Whether Bargnani will, is something to be determined.
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are you suggesting that it is possible for the raps to acquire a noah TYPE for some TPE and evans ?
An accountant's paradise, where he/she can escape the whole mundane existence of accounting, and put together a package of salaries that has true sports fans going .... wtf. One thing I have learned, is that the TPE is on its' own when it comes to transactions. It can also be split into many unequal parts. But at no time can it be combined with a player. And as such, Evans can't be included with a 5 million dollar TPE to get 10 million back - a Noah type getting real time dollars. But Evans & Marcus & Wright (I believe), can be traded for 13 million - or thereabouts. As I know it, there is a qualifying option with Wright.
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do you understand ? if bargs made progress, and had the capability to lead a team, those 5 games would have been the time. and to not even have ONE game where he even hinted at double digit rebounds is the point.
I'm simply saying - as Stats go, that's not enough to make a judgment. It's no different then this post: Bargs' Defense Not Improved Over The Summer ... based on his game against Pekovic. That story went from Pekovic vs Italy, to Pekovic vs Bargnani. Reinforces my belief that it's not the Bargnani homers that are fanatical, but more so the Haters.
Anyways, I've taken enough Stat courses to know, 5 games out of 82 would not constitute a proper sample size. 50 games (out of 820, if you want to show its' not about percentages) would be more the amount that gets my attention.
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Which brings me to how I see this year for Bargnani. If some people expect him to start off scoring high above last year's numbers (because he'll be the man), they may be disappointed. Post Bosh, we have very few ammo guys after Andrea. Bosh & Bargnani may have sucked at defense, but offensively, we had a very potent duo (8th - and that counts Reggie). Duo aside, our Front Court had not much more - just the makings of potential (Amir). Now Bargs will experience double teams, and more concentrated defense. The upside is, Demar, Weems & Amir should benefit greatly from that. In the end, if Bargs numbers fall, would that be a bad thing.
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I like what's happening with the Raps. I'll miss Bosh. I hope he doesn't get booed too much. Personally, I think this was a good move for both parties. We have draft picks on the team, and possibly 2 more coming next. Just what most have asked for. Should even one sprout from this year, and more next, it will be worth the change.
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In the end, Toronto is a classy city. And it needs to show those m^@therf*@king egos out there - that despite the occasional anger management classes, we really are just intense fans.
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There it is ...
vinnie_paz wrote: View Postand i am just going to leave you with this.
Rafael Arajuo's ROOKIE SEASON (2004-2005) he averaged 9.0 rebounds per 36 minutes
Andrea Bargnani's FOURTH SEASON (2009-2010) he averaged 6.3 rebounds per 36 minutes.
Finally ... a good idea comes out of all these debates. Let's sign Raf back.
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