Feelings About The Playoffs And Tanking

[blackjitsu]

Playoffs.

If you told someone that a team that made the playoffs after a restructuring of the economic system in the NBA still had financial flexibility they would tell you that free-agents would flock to that team. Nothing wrong with draft picks but winning is always better.

[jeff_hostetler]

To webcrawler:

It's not tanking for a draft pick. I think pretty much everyone posting here is against that. At least I hope they are. Developing young players and letting them play through mistakes - Derozan is a perfect example - is what is necessary when all you've got is youth and potential. That's not tanking. Nowhere close. Look at OKC. Yes, they got Durant, but by making his development a priority, they then were able to draft Westbrook and Harden. Continuity, consistency of plan, and development.

It's not that you're aiming to lose to get a good draft pick, it's that you, as a GM, must be cognizant that you will lose, in the short term, and sometimes you need to make mistakes in order to learn from them and get better. However, there is also a draft, and to ignore the draft as a way to get better is to ignore a fundamental component of the NBA.

So, yes. Win as much as possible. Demand it, in fact, so long as the players you are asking to win games for you are the players you expect will be with you in the long term and that you are looking to build around. Playing someone like Peja heavy minutes would have been totally contra to what needed to happen this season. Not playing him isn't tanking, it's being realistic.

Derozan may well turn out to be an all-star, but in the meantime, there are other holes in the roster that need patching. I would love Derozan to turn out to be that good. But then you've got Derozan and who else? An added benefit of putting Derozan in the captain's chair is the pressure that comes with it. Playing to win at all costs would rob him of that pressure, and hence would shrink his ceiling. Say we had an all-star 3, aged 30. Would Derozan have been compelled to get better, as he most certainly has, or be more content to play the role player that he did last season?

[Apollo]

To webcrawler:

It's not tanking for a draft pick. I think pretty much everyone posting here is against that. At least I hope they are. Developing young players and letting them play through mistakes - Derozan is a perfect example - is what is necessary when all you've got is youth and potential. That's not tanking. Nowhere close.

Guys have been clearly saying they want to see the team lose bad and get a high pick. The focus has not been on them losing as a result of playing the young guys, it's been on losing to get the good pick because the team needs more talent. There was no picture painted in what type of losing would be ok and what would not.

I said a number of times I have no problem losing with the young guys but if they can win then we should not root against the young guys.

[jeff_hostetler]

Just to add: If Derozan turned a second corner this season and was able to carry the Raps into the playoffs, that would change the whole dynamic of what's going on with this rebuild, and it would be awesome. I just think that it's pretty unrealistic. For that to happen, he'd have to become an excellent defender, and up his assists by about 4 or 5 a game. Not likely with 40 games left to go. Maybe next year. But then we'd have a new rookie or two to add to the puzzle...

[Apollo]

All I know is at USC he struggled royally and then suddenly, almost as though it was over night, something clicked and he carried his team way further than anyone could have imagined. Not saying something similar will happen this year but I would not be shocked either.

[Tim W.]

The only caveat here is that the Raps still need a piece or two. Given how hard it is for TO to attract Free Agents, that major piece is likely going to have to come from the draft. Which I think is where the real underlying issues lie. But even with this year's drafy I think only Irving or P. Jones are the real franchise players, realistically. If the Raps miss the playoffs and those two players, that'd be a double whammy of disappointment. And in all honesty, that's probably the most realistic scenario.

I agree, although Perry scares me. I think he's got a world of talent but his comparisons to Tracy McGrady, at this point, seem all too real. And there's a reason McGrady has never been out of the first round. Irving, I think is the the only real franchise player, but wouldn't be devastated if the Raptors get someone like Terrence Jones or a healthy Enes Kanter.

[webcrawler89]

I don't mind the team losing because of the young players still getting a feel for the game, but as Apollo said, there seems to be an adamant desire for our team to lose games. I'd rather see them get a playoff spot, but yeah, a high draft pick is acceptable too, but not at the expense of the confidence of our players. These kids need to win games soon for themselves in the present, or it just becomes disheartening.

[jeff_hostetler]

Guys have been clearly saying they want to see the team lose bad and get a high pick. The focus has not been on them losing as a result of playing the young guys, it's been on losing to get the good pick because the team needs more talent. There was no picture painted in what type of losing would be ok and what would not.

I said a number of times I have no problem losing with the young guys but if they can win then we should not root against the young guys.

Well, I suppose I should just say that, in my opinion, losing on purpose goes against the very principle of development.

[mcHAPPY]

Players and coaches should work their @sses off and let the chips fall where they may. There are +'s and -'s for both scenarios. At the end of the day it only matters they keep working and showing improvement.

To purposely tank is wrong on so many levels.

Like has been mentioned throughout by a few posters, if by some unlikely miracle they made the playoffs or finished just out of the playoffs the assets are there to make a move at the draft - but it would most definitely involve a bad contract.

[Tim W.]

Maybe that was too harsh but I definitely feel that those who are rooting against the Raptors are certainly misguided.

Well, I think ANYONE who doesn't agree with me is misguided, but that's another story.

You said you would prefer they lose. I said if they lose, fine. If they make the playoffs, fine. I see the benefit in both. My problem was with people saying there was little value in them making the playoffs.

This year, I would prefer to see them lose because making the playoffs with 35 wins is fool's gold.

Why should I? It means they're improving and coming together far faster than should have been expected. To me that would suggest that the coaches are getting it right and so too are the players. On top of that they get experience on a more difficult stage and come away with first hand knowledge of what it takes to be successful in the pressure cooker known as the NBA playoffs.

I think making the playoffs would be great for the development of the players, but not for the development of the franchise. And waiting one more year isn't going to make much difference for the players.

I disagree. Every draft has a handful of players who are taken outside the top five who go on to have excellent careers. Colangelo has an excellent track record in drafting guy outside the top 5. He built a contender on guys drafted outside the top five. History tells me that if they're drafting outside the top Colangelo more than likely will add a very nice player. For the fourth time I will mention the fact that they have two first rounders and over $10M in the TPE to help use on draft night to move up to get their guy no matter where they are. And if you're right about the draft being weak then all the more reason to believe their will be sellers in the draft.

Yes, every draft has players drafted outside of the top five who go on to become great players. But the point is that it's A LOT harder to find those player and the chance of finding one is reduced significantly the lower you draft. I have to say this argument bugs me because it makes it seem like it's a lot easier than it actually is to draft great players lower. You might as well buy a lottery ticket.

And yes, it's supposed to be a weak draft outside of the top five, but it's also INCREDIBLY hard to buy or trade your way into the top five, especially in a top heavy draft. If there is little talent outside of the top 5, why would you trade down?

People were calling that one a weak draft before hand. You take Jenning off that team and they don't go to the playoffs. Salmons played 30 games for them. Bogut missed 13. Not saying they didn't contribute but I am saying in my opinion Jenning was the most valuable player on that team and still is.

He's been as model NBA citizen from the first tip off of last season. The fact he got snubbed and took it hard tell shows me his competitiveness. I'm not sure why he didn't get picked but he deserved to be on the team. Maybe he's right? I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but he made some interesting observations...

Again, I'm not bashing Jennings. He's a very good player, but my point is that he's not the player some Raptor fans seem to think he is. Was he the MVP of the Bucks, last year? Possibly. Possibly not. Bogut and Salmons definitely were important to the team, as well. They don't trade for Salmons and it's doubtful they make the playoffs. Take Bogut off the team and they don't make the playoffs.

Was Jennings a better player than DeRozan last year? Most definitely. Does that mean that the Raptors should have drafted Jennings over DeRozan? Absolutely not. And that's the gist of the argument.

[Tim W.]

Just to add: If Derozan turned a second corner this season and was able to carry the Raps into the playoffs, that would change the whole dynamic of what's going on with this rebuild, and it would be awesome. I just think that it's pretty unrealistic. For that to happen, he'd have to become an excellent defender, and up his assists by about 4 or 5 a game. Not likely with 40 games left to go. Maybe next year. But then we'd have a new rookie or two to add to the puzzle...

Agreed. My argument is that the team doesn't have elite talent to ever become a contender, so they need to add one, and the most likely and easiest place to do that is the draft. While I really like what out I see out of guys like DeRozan and Davis, as well as Amir, Bayless and a few others, I simply don't see any of them being a top 5 player. If DeRozan suddenly turns into looking like he could be one, which he would pretty much have to do to take this team to the playoffs, they I'd change my mind. Of course, making the playoffs with 35 wins doesn't prove anything except that your conference really, really sucks.

[Multipaul]

Bargs is and will be elite.
Dero soon to follow, next up Big Ed.
These guys play hard every night. They deserve to make it to the playoffs.

You guys that wanna tank and think "a year means nothing to these guys" don't have your heads on straight.

Get real

Bargs=Tupac

[Tim W.]

EDIT: @ Tim W.'s reply to my original comment (Sorry, I thought I quoted it, still trying to figure this site out)

I'm curious, what is your definition of a franchise player?

players don't tend to stay in a team unless they respect the franchise/organization or feel that it has the winning mentality that they want. That's why teams like Boston and Lakers and Spurs and Orlando etc are able to attract talent.

Obviously, there's no clear-cut simple answer to this. A team needs to have a good overall organization to be a successfully winning team. But to say that it starts with simply tanking to get a high draft pick is ludicrous. Why not try to start it by really pushing our current players to their limits, try squeezing every amount of effort out of them?

And we don't know how well Irving may even be as an NBA player, as you so pointed out with the Tim Duncan draft, a high pick doesn't always guarantee a good player. Look at Evan Turner now, he has occasional good games, but is nowhere near what people expected of him. Even his GM (or I think it's the owner) thinks he doesn't deserve the ball in his hands.

There's no reason to think Derozan can't be a franchise player, and an actual good one. He's got the work ethic, he's got the attitude, he has the skills and he has the potential. A few months ago he couldn't even dribble into the paint without getting stripped, and now he looks like he can practically glide through some defenses.

Look I'm not against the draft as a means of getting better, but within the context of our situation, we need to make the playoffs.

To me, a true franchise player is a guy who can lead his team to the title, and that's usually an MVP calibre player. No matter what team you are, if you don't have a franchise player on your team, there is little likelihood you will ever become a true contender. Boston and the Lakers are able to attract players because they are the two winningest organizations in basketball and have storied histories. And even then it didn't help Boston in the late 90's and most of the 00's (I still don't know what to call them).

The Spurs can attract talent because they have Tim Duncan and great management. Orlando can attract talent because they have Dwight Howard.

If you aren't a storied organization, which the Raptors aren't, then you need elite talent to attract talent.

And again, I'm not suggesting tanking. I'm suggesting the players play hard and the coaches focus on developing the young players and helping them try to win. As a fan, though, I take solace in every loss that it helps them get closer to what will help this franchise the most.

And no one said the draft is a guarantee, but it doesn't mean it's not a good route. It's still the easiest way to build a contender and find a franchise player.

Right now, I see DeRozan's ceiling as a perennial All-Star, which is very good. He's a hard worker and has a knack for scoring, but franchise players have something more than what DeRozan exhibits. That transcendent quality that is so rare. Chris Bosh is a great player, but he's obviously not good enough to be the best player on a Championship team.

[Apollo]

This year, I would prefer to see them lose because making the playoffs with 35 wins is fool's gold.

That's only because you think if they can't win a ring then the playoffs are a waste of time. And you still haven't named me a team who's made the playoffs on 35 wins. You also have not named me a team who has won a championship in the past 20 years thanks to tanking for high draft picks.

Yes, every draft has players drafted outside of the top five who go on to become great players. But the point is that it's A LOT harder to find those player and the chance of finding one is reduced significantly the lower you draft. I have to say this argument bugs me because it makes it seem like it's a lot easier than it actually is to draft great players lower. You might as well buy a lottery ticket.

Colangelo has one of the best track records in the league when drafting outside the top five. If the Raptors get healthy, given the schedule, chances are they'll be drafting outside the top five so good thing history is on their side.

Yes, every draft has players drafted outside of the top five who go on to become great players. But the point is that it's A LOT harder to find those player and the chance of finding one is reduced significantly the lower you draft. I have to say this argument bugs me because it makes it seem like it's a lot easier than it actually is to draft great players lower. You might as well buy a lottery ticket.

And yes, it's supposed to be a weak draft outside of the top five, but it's also INCREDIBLY hard to buy or trade your way into the top five, especially in a top heavy draft. If there is little talent outside of the top 5, why would you trade down?

- The Blazers got Roy(6th overall) with Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff, 2008 2nd round pick.
- They moved up two spots to #2 by dealing their #4 and Viktor Khyrapa
- The Wolves essential traded Randy Foye and Mike Miller to get the fifth and got some role players in return as well.

If there is little talent outside of the top 5, why would you trade down?

That's your opinion. You don't have access to a team of scouts. We don't know who's targeting who. We don't even know who's coming out. The CBA negotiations could scare a lot of the top prospects into staying. Then were does your tank job get you?

Again, I'm not bashing Jennings. He's a very good player, but my point is that he's not the player some Raptor fans seem to think he is. Was he the MVP of the Bucks, last year? Possibly. Possibly not. Bogut and Salmons definitely were important to the team, as well. They don't trade for Salmons and it's doubtful they make the playoffs. Take Bogut off the team and they don't make the playoffs.

I like DeRozan and so I'll make it clear that I'm happy with that pick. In defense to Jenning again though, the Bucks went 4-2 to close the season to land in 6th seed and then took the Hawks to game seven. During that series he average 19PPG, 4 AST, 3 REB, got to the line four times a game, had a true shooting percentage of close to 50%. All that with Bogut not playing a single minute. Not bad for a rookie who went tenth overall.

[Tim W.]

That's only because you think if they can't win a ring then the playoffs are a waste of time. And you still haven't named me a team who's made the playoffs on 35 wins. You also have not named me a team who has won a championship in the past 20 years thanks to tanking for high draft picks.

I think the goal of EVERY franchise should be to win a Championship. Do you disagree?

And why do I have to name you a team that has made the playoffs with 35 wins? If it has happened, it hasn't happened for a long time. That's not the point. The point is that the East is looking so bad that a 35 win team might very well make the playoffs this year.

As for naming a team that tanked that won a Championship in the last 20 years, I don't think there is one. Of course, that has nothing to do with this argument because I AM NOT CONDONING TANKING. If I cheered for them to lose every game (which I don't) it would have absolutely no effect on their record. Me wanting them to get a high pick doesn't mean they are tanking.

Tanking is purposely losing games. I've never suggested they purposely lose games. I've even said I would like for the players to try to win every game. I would also like to see the coaches try and win, but with the caveat that they play the young player as much as possible.

If I wanted them to tank, I would have suggested they trade Calderon, and even Amir, for draft picks and projects, since those are the two players that have the seem to have the biggest positive effect on the win total.

If I wanted to tank, I would never have complained about Bargnani playing all those minutes when he was shooting so poorly.

What I want for the team is for them to develop the young players and teach them to compete on a nightly basis.

I also know this team simply doesn't have the talent to get a lot of wins, so if it's a difference between 30 wins and 20 wins, I'll take 20 wins.

Colangelo has one of the best track records in the league when drafting outside the top five. If the Raptors get healthy, given the schedule, chances are they'll be drafting outside the top five so good thing history is on their side.

Colangelo has a great track record when drafting out of the top five. I agree. It doesn't mean I'd want to intentionally handcuff him. I'd rather give him the best chance to find an elite level talent. And that's in the top five.

- The Blazers got Roy, 6th overall with Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff, 2008 2nd round pick.
- They moved up two spots to #2 by dealing their #4 and Viktor Khyrapa
- The Wolves essential traded Randy Foye and Mike Miller to get the fifth and got some role players in return as well.

I never said it was impossible to move up. I said it is difficult. Otherwise it would be common, and it's not. Most teams that land in the top five keep their pick.

I could name you half a dozen 2nd rounders who became All-Stars. Maybe the Raptors should trade their pick away for a veteran who will help them make the playoffs and just use their 2nd round pick to draft a star.

That's your opinion. You don't have access to a team of scouts. We don't know who's targeting who. We don't even know who's coming out. The CBA negotiations could scare a lot of the top prospects into staying. Then were does your tank job get you?

It's not my opinion. It's a question. If a draft is top heavy, the chance of finding a good player outside of the top five is greatly diminished. Again, I never said it was impossible. But your way is a lot risky than my way.

I like DeRozan and so I'll make it clear that I'm happy with that pick. In defense to Jenning again though, the Bucks went 4-2 to close the season to land in 6th seed and then took the Hawks to game seven. During that series he average 19PPG, 4 AST, 3 REB, got to the line four times a game, had a true shooting percentage of close to 50%. All that with Bogut not playing a single minute. Not bad for a rookie who went tenth overall.

We seem to be arguing about two different things. The reason I started talking about Jennings was, if I remember correctly, someone criticized Colangelo's drafting, which you obviously would disagree with, too. My whole point was that DeRozan was a good pick and that Colangelo didn't make a mistake by passing on Jennings and Holiday.