Available legitimate Center for Toronto

[DunkinDerozan]

The Raptors don't have a "big dog". They have a bunch of players, most of whom were forced into larger rolls than they would normally play.

Big Dog as in the face of the franchise the longest serving member the number one draft pick

As for your theory that Amir Johnson having played in the league longer means that Bargnani still has lot of room for growth, you do realize that Bargnani has played more than twice as many minutes in the league as Amir, right? It's hard to argue that Bargnani hasn't had a chance to develop when he's played so many minutes. Big men tend to take so long to develop because they don't get much playing time. It's not lack of playing time that has prevented Bargnani from learning defense or rebounding.

It’s much easier to be effective in short spurts. Playing major minutes can actually make a player regress if there not ready for the increase. You do realize it takes effort to play extended minutes. People don’t just stand around when they play. For example it takes much less effort to consistently foul and as a result consistently rest on the bench because of foul trouble.

And why would we assume 25 and 8 from him? There's literally no evidence whatsoever that supports this claim. Especially the 8 rebounds. You might as well claim that we assume that Amir will average 15 and 12.

Notice how I said assume. Projections are purely speculation how could there be any evidence to support something that will be determined in over 1 year from now?

Lastly, your point about Bargnani being the most skilled PF is incorrect. He's the most skilled OFFENSIVELY. I don't understand why we keep having to say this. Davis and Amir are much more well rounded players than Bargnani is. Who is a more skilled player, Jason Kapono or Shane Battier? Kapono certainly is a better scorer, but Battier is a better overall player.


Defensive is more positioning and determination. Offensive is skill.

[KingRaptors]

- Bynum/Gasol, Howard/Bass, Noah/Boozer, Martin/Nene/ ---- what do these guys all have in common? How many rebounds do they contribute? Who's the lockdown defender between the two of them?

They are a strong frontcourt combo, that all play defense and can finish in the paint area.... a M.Gasol/Johnson frontcourt really? How many rebounds do each of them even grab? From the top of my head, I think its 7 maybe even 8.

I'm just saying that if we're going to get a frontcourt player, we need one that would complement our already existing frontcourt player of either Ed Davis or Amir Johnson... this in no way am I saying to trade one of the two, because I think we should keep the two.

[Tim W.]

IMO
He should be able to play his natural position
The team should try finding a true center
They should give him a fair chance to build chemistry with one group for an extended period not multiple groups for short periods
Finally if none of the above works then we can be fairly confident nothing will change

And what exactly makes you think he hasn't been playing his natural position? What would moving to PF from C do, exactly?

And after five years of seeing the same thing, shouldn't you be fairly confident that nothing will change? We've seen offensive progression but no progress on defense or rebounding. Five years! Do you really think an arbitrary position title change is going have such an effect that we'll finally see some progression in an area we've seen none in five years?

[Tim W.]

Big Dog as in the face of the franchise the longest serving member the number one draft pick

Actually, Calderon is the longest serving member of the team. He's the only player who was a Raptor before Colangelo. As for him being a number #1 pick, who cares. I find it funny that Bargnani fans seem to hate when people complain where he was drafted (I don't, by the way), yet you keep bringing up a fact that means absolutely nothing at this point in his career.

It’s much easier to be effective in short spurts. Playing major minutes can actually make a player regress if there not ready for the increase. You do realize it takes effort to play extended minutes. People don’t just stand around when they play. For example it takes much less effort to consistently foul and as a result consistently rest on the bench because of foul trouble.

You're talking about effectiveness, not development. Or are you trying to say it's easier to develop with fewer minutes?

Notice how I said assume. Projections are purely speculation how could there be any evidence to support something that will be determined in over 1 year from now?

But why are we assuming he will average 25 and 8? How about we assume he averages 30 and 12? Or 20 and 5? You're just throwing arbitrary numbers out there, so what's the difference.

Defensive is more positioning and determination. Offensive is skill.

Apparently you haven't watched a lot of good defenders. Good defense is most definitely a skill. The fact that you don't think it is tells me maybe you don't quite understand just what it takes to be a good defender. It takes a high basketball IQ and it takes instincts. I have a buddy who I've played with for nearly 20 years. In his prime, he was the best defender I've ever played with. I consider myself a very good defender and always work as hard as I can, but I simply don't have his defensive skill. He's not all that athletic, doesn't jump high and is the same height as me (5'10), but the guy simply is a more skilled defender than I am. He's now in his 40s with a bad hip and tendonitis in both knees, but he's such a skilled defensive player he can still cause people fits. including me.

I really don't think you fully understand defense if you don't think it's a skill, and it is very telling why you defend Bargnani the way you do. If you truly respect defense, you wouldn't be defending Bargnani.

[DunkinDerozan]

And what exactly makes you think he hasn't been playing his natural position? What would moving to PF from C do, exactly?

For Andrea personally maybe not a whole lot but for the team as a whole it would be extremely beneficial. By nature Andrea is not naturally a physical player. Having an intimidating presence in the middle will allow Andrea to focus more on positioning and rebounding as appose to anchoring a defense which is a typical center’s job. So for example where this year he would be more focused on helping out on defense with a natural center to back him up he would only need to focus on blocking out his man. Also if you look at some recent dynasties (Lakers, Spurs) they’ve both had 2 seven footers duncan, robinson and gasol bynum.

And after five years of seeing the same thing, shouldn't you be fairly confident that nothing will change? We've seen offensive progression but no progress on defense or rebounding. Five years! Do you really think an arbitrary position title change is going have such an effect that we'll finally see some progression in an area we've seen none in five years?

That is where you’re mistaken. There is a reason a center is the last line of defense. They are paid to cover for other players deficiencies and protect the paint. Power forwards are usually complement players to centers. For 5 years Andrea has been forced to play out of position and take on responsibilities he just is not suited for.

[DunkinDerozan]

Actually, Calderon is the longest serving member of the team. He's the only player who was a Raptor before Colangelo. As for him being a number #1 pick, who cares. I find it funny that Bargnani fans seem to hate when people complain where he was drafted (I don't, by the way), yet you keep bringing up a fact that means absolutely nothing at this point in his career.

Actually if you look at Colangelo’s resume he has an amazing track record when it comes to drafting players. If Bryan was willing to spend the #1 pick on Andrea with players such as roy and Aldridge available I believe this should hold a lot weight.

You're talking about effectiveness, not development. Or are you trying to say it's easier to develop with fewer minutes?

So it’s effective to foul and sit on the bench? Or are you blaming Amir’s lack of development on his playing time yet ignoring the fact that his ineffectiveness (foul trouble) is a major reason why.

But why are we assuming he will average 25 and 8? How about we assume he averages 30 and 12? Or 20 and 5? You're just throwing arbitrary numbers out there, so what's the difference.
How is that number so arbitrary if he improves his scoring by a little over 15% he’ll reach 25 points

you haven't watched a lot of good defenders. Good defense is most definitely a skill. The fact that you don't think it is tells me maybe you don't quite understand just what it takes to be a good defender. It takes a high basketball IQ and it takes instincts. I have a buddy who I've played with for nearly 20 years. In his prime, he was the best defender I've ever played with. I consider myself a very good defender and always work as hard as I can, but I simply don't have his defensive skill. He's not all that athletic, doesn't jump high and is the same height as me (5'10), but the guy simply is a more skilled defender than I am. He's now in his 40s with a bad hip and tendonitis in both knees, but he's such a skilled defensive player he can still cause people fits. including me.I really don't think you fully understand defense if you don't think it's a skill, and it is very telling why you defend Bargnani the way you do. If you truly respect defense, you wouldn't be defending Bargnani.

Maybe because you played the pg position its hard for you to relate to the physical abuse it takes to play the center position. You do realize it takes much more effort out of a player to bang down low with opposing centers than any other position. Why do you think hockey teams have two scoring lines and two checking lines. Defense will always be a big part of any sport is to prevent the opposition from scoring. But ultimately you need the skilled offensive players to take you over the top.

[Tim W.]

For Andrea personally maybe not a whole lot but for the team as a whole it would be extremely beneficial. By nature Andrea is not naturally a physical player. Having an intimidating presence in the middle will allow Andrea to focus more on positioning and rebounding as appose to anchoring a defense which is a typical center’s job. So for example where this year he would be more focused on helping out on defense with a natural center to back him up he would only need to focus on blocking out his man. Also if you look at some recent dynasties (Lakers, Spurs) they’ve both had 2 seven footers duncan, robinson and gasol bynum.

We're not talking about the team. We're talking about Bargnani. And Bargnani has never anchored the defense. Especially this year. That was either up to Reggie, Amir or Davis. Bargnani was never asked to do much heavy lifting on defense because he was seemingly incapable of it. For the most part, he was asked to guard the lesser front court player.

Besides, how exactly is having someone like Dwight Howard going to make Bargnani focus more on defense and rebounding? That makes no sense. The biggest excuse early in the season as to why Bargnani wasn't averaging more rebounds was because he was playing beside Evans.

That is where you’re mistaken. There is a reason a center is the last line of defense. They are paid to cover for other players deficiencies and protect the paint. Power forwards are usually complement players to centers. For 5 years Andrea has been forced to play out of position and take on responsibilities he just is not suited for.

BOTH big men are asked to help out on defense. It's not as if the center stands in the middle and waits for someone to drive. It's whoever is closest. Sometimes that's the PF and sometimes that's the C. And this year especially, Bargnani defended PFs and Cs equally because he would usually take the weakest front court player. And you may not have noticed that when they played zone it wasn't Bargnani in the middle. It was either Davis or Amir. Bargnani was always on the wing.

And I'm not quite sure how rebounding and playing defense are responsibilities a big man, no matter which position he plays, is not suited for.

[Tim W.]

[Actually if you look at Colangelo’s resume he has an amazing track record when it comes to drafting players. If Bryan was willing to spend the #1 pick on Andrea with players such as roy and Aldridge available I believe this should hold a lot weight.

It means you give the man the benefit of the doubt when he is drafting. It doesn't mean you continually bring up where a player was drafted. I've defended Colangelo's drafting record constantly, but the man isn't infallible, if he was, he wouldn't have drafted Zarko Cabarkapa and passed on David West, Kendrick Perkins and Josh Howard.

So it’s effective to foul and sit on the bench? Or are you blaming Amir’s lack of development on his playing time yet ignoring the fact that his ineffectiveness (foul trouble) is a major reason why.

Amir didn't get playing time for the first few years mainly because he was incredibly young and on a contending team with guys like Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess ahead of him. Yes, he's had a problem with fouling, but this year he showed enough progress to be able to average nearly 30 mpg in January and February. Personally, I'd take Amir and his ability to contribute on both ends for 30 mpg than Bargnani contributing on only one end for 35 minutes.

But, of course, this is about development. You inferred that Bargnani playing more minutes may have actually hindered his development and Amir playing less helped his. This I don't get.

How is that number so arbitrary if he improves his scoring by a little over 15% he’ll reach 25 points

Why would he improve his scoring by 15%, though? And why would he improve his rebounding at all? There is absolutely no evidence that Bargnani would ever be able to average 8 rpg over the course of a season. The thing is, I argued this last summer and got attacked for it by many of his fans with claims that it's likely he would average at least 7 rpg this season. I guess Bargnani didn't get the memo.

Maybe because you played the pg position its hard for you to relate to the physical abuse it takes to play the center position. You do realize it takes much more effort out of a player to bang down low with opposing centers than any other position. Why do you think hockey teams have two scoring lines and two checking lines. Defense will always be a big part of any sport is to prevent the opposition from scoring. But ultimately you need the skilled offensive players to take you over the top.

I've actually play every single position fairly regularly. My "natural" position is PG, but I'm strong enough and a good enough post player and rebounder that I will often play PF or C. I'm certainly undersized, but I know enough tricks and know how to keep the post player I'm defending off balance enough that people generally don't like when I defend them in the post. And I do it more and more as I've gotten older. And I actually find it easier to defend down low than on the perimeter. On the perimeter you run around a lot more, getting banged off picks and have to keep in a defensive stance (which is harder as you get older). When I'm tired, I usually end up switching to a post player. It's not that it's easy, but I certainly don't find it harder. And I'm not built like Bargnani. I mean the guy is 7 feet and 250 lbs and you're telling me he's not suited to play the center position? There's guys a LOT smaller that do it.

And yes, you need skilled offensive players to win just as you need skilled defensive players. You can't win with one or the other. And it's a lot harder to win if your offensive player, who is also a big man, can't play defense. I've played with enough scorers who play defense like Bargnani does. It's not conducive to winning.

[mcHAPPY]

Oh and I've was meaning to ask you, at what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

You didn't ask me but the west coast trip at the end of the year did it for me.

[DunkinDerozan]

Don't try telling Dallas Mavericks center Brendan Haywood that the window is closing on Dirk Nowitzki's chances of winning an NBA title. He's not buying it. "The window looks real open to me,'' Haywood said after Friday's practice. "The window's open, the shades are up, the wind's blowing through, it's sunny outside. "Look what the guy does every night. He's the type of guy that his game was never built on athleticism. It's built on skill, so guys like that can play longer and play at a higher level for a long period of time.'' Fort Worth Star-Telegram

[EaseMyPain]

People keep missing out on what Bargnani is. he is slow, more so in the head than the feet. He is a player that you prescribe things to. Andrea, you stand here, I throw you the ball, shoot. Done. Stop expecting him to be a rebounder or weak side help defender. He is not so bad on man defence because he does not have to think in that situation.

Bargnani needs to become a better shooter. Not a better shooter for a big man, but a great shooter. He needs to be 45 % average from the 3. And he needs to be a better shooter from mid range. He becomes a much more valuable piece this way and you can surround him with guys that fit (big defensive center, a J Johnson who can guard excellent 4's who AB can't guard, zone defences so he at least stands in the right place) and allow him to do a few simple things well.

[Maleko]

Don't try telling Dallas Mavericks center Brendan Haywood that the window is closing on Dirk Nowitzki's chances of winning an NBA title. He's not buying it. "The window looks real open to me,'' Haywood said after Friday's practice. "The window's open, the shades are up, the wind's blowing through, it's sunny outside. "Look what the guy does every night. He's the type of guy that his game was never built on athleticism. It's built on skill, so guys like that can play longer and play at a higher level for a long period of time.'' Fort Worth Star-Telegram

yah, ok.

[Tim W.]

Don't try telling Dallas Mavericks center Brendan Haywood that the window is closing on Dirk Nowitzki's chances of winning an NBA title. He's not buying it. "The window looks real open to me,'' Haywood said after Friday's practice. "The window's open, the shades are up, the wind's blowing through, it's sunny outside. "Look what the guy does every night. He's the type of guy that his game was never built on athleticism. It's built on skill, so guys like that can play longer and play at a higher level for a long period of time.'' Fort Worth Star-Telegram

And this is notable because it's rare for players to be optimistic about their team's chances?

[nubreed000]

I swear these Bargnani defenders must be family members or something cause nobody can be this delusional.

Then again, there's people that think Fox News is credible so...ya...definitely not the brightest bulbs

[WhatWhat]

(After we draft Irving, Williams, or Barnes /optimism) How about trading Bargnani for the rights for Jonas V, Kanter, or even Biyombo?