Free Agency 2011

[mcHAPPY]

In Marc Stein's and Chad Ford's amnesty discussion for all teams in the league, this was written, uh oh:

One disclaimer: Sources say Toronto is trying to be as aggressive as it can be in the big-man market in free agency and has informed the players involved that it intends to lodge serious bids for Nene, Chandler and restricted free agent Marc Gasol. In the unlikely event that releasing a player through amnesty could clinch the signing of one of those players, rest assured that the Raptors will go for it.

Source: Chad Ford, Marc Stein, ESPN.com

[Tim W.]

No one said anything about trying to copy. I gave an example.

8 of the top 10 draft picks ranked by draft express are PF's. Say Chandler adds 10 wins and now they are up to 32 wins (82 game schedule talk here), so now they are picking around 8th with a possibility to get a guy like Quincy Miller. Miller has franchise talent in my opinion.

But what if the gamble paid off? They tack on 10 wins next year, draft a wing, add another piece or two (Wilson Chandler? Steve Nash?), developing the rookies in a competitive environment to have Nash and Tyson Chandler go off in to the sunset without missing a beat.


We are talking possibilities here with nothing being guaranteed for any one possibility.

I know you weren't advocating copying Detroit, but it's something I've read numerous times on here from others.

So your hope is that a franchise player drops. In the last 10 years, there have been 10 players who made the All NBA first or second team who were drafted outside of the top 5, so it seems, on the surface, you might be onto something. A closer look says something else, though. Included on that list are Gilbert Arenas, Peja and Sam Cassell, players who have never gone to the All-Star game more than 3 times in their career, so it's hard to call them franchise players. Ben Wallace went 4 times, and while he's was made a huge impact on the defensive end, his lack of offense precludes me from calling him a franchise player.

Of the 6 players left, only Steve Nash and Paul Pierce were actually drafted out of college. And both of them were drafted as low as they were in large part due to their believed lack of potential. Neither possessed the elite athleticism that teams like. And only Nash has shown to be the type of player to be able to put a team on his back.

I think if Quincy Miller does have the potential to be a franchise player, then he's not the type of player who's going to end up falling. Guys like him tend to move up in the draft, not down. He's an elite athlete without a real big weakness in his game.

As for the gamble paying off, and develop the rookies in a competitive environment, and watch Nash and Chandler go off into the sunset, then what? They are in the exact position I'd rather they not be in. They'd have a bunch of good, but no great players on a good, but not great team without any real hope of winning a Championship.

[Nilanka]

In Marc Stein's and Chad Ford's amnesty discussion for all teams in the league, this was written, uh oh

Fingers crossed that landing one of these guys equates to the trade/amnesty of Bargnani. I would love a front court rotation of Gasol, Jonas, Davis and Amir.

[mcHAPPY]

Fingers crossed that landing one of these guys equates to the trade/amnesty of Bargnani. I would love a front court rotation of Gasol, Jonas, Davis and Amir.

I don't think that at all. Bargnani has one more shot and Colangelo appears to be going all in on it.

[Nilanka]

I don't think that at all. Bargnani has one more shot and Colangelo appears to be going all in on it.

I don't think so either. But I'm hoping

[slaw]

As for the gamble paying off, and develop the rookies in a competitive environment, and watch Nash and Chandler go off into the sunset, then what? They are in the exact position I'd rather they not be in. They'd have a bunch of good, but no great players on a good, but not great team without any real hope of winning a Championship.

No, if they're going after Chandler or Gasol then don't half-ass it. Sign Chandler, trade Ed Davis, trade the 2012 first rounder, trade the 2014 first rounder, trade Valanciunas, trade Demar and Calderon, whoever... go make a run at Chris Paul and try to get Rudy Gay. Build for 2012-13 and try to win the East. If you're not prepared to do that, then WTF is the point of adding one guy?

This scares me cause it sounds like classic Colangelo: run as fast as you can to stay in the same place.

[Hugmenot]

I don't think that at all. Bargnani has one more shot and Colangelo appears to be going all in on it.

Sigh... Is it possible for BryCo to significantly improve one of his team's deficiencies without being accused of making Bargnani the center piece of the future build?

If Bargnani improves significantly, he will be what? Maybe 30th best player in the league? Is it fair to say DeRozen has a similar or maybe slightly higher ceiling, say 25th best player in the league? Star players who are unlikely to make 1st or 2nd team all-NBA except in a freak year.

Not exactly players I would call the cornerstone of a Championship level team.

But if you have enough talented players, you have the option to make 2-for-1 trades for a better player without creating a major deficiency, in addition to being a more attrractive destination for superstars who feel their window of opportunitry is getting shorter.

[mcHAPPY]

Sigh... Is it possible for BryCo to significantly improve one of his team's deficiencies without being accused of making Bargnani the center piece of the future build?

If Bargnani improves significantly, he will be what? Maybe 30th best player in the league? Is it fair to say DeRozen has a similar or maybe slightly higher ceiling, say 25th best player in the league? Star players who are unlikely to make 1st or 2nd team all-NBA except in a freak year.

Not players I would call the cornerstone of a Championship level team. But if you have enough, you have the option to make 2-for-1 trades for a better player without creating a major deficiency, in addition to being a more attrractive destination for superstars who feel their window of opportunitry is getting shorter.

The deficiencies are there mainly because of Bargnani. If the plan was to trade Bargnani then a high profile C would not be the target with JV coming over next year and Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, and Solomon Alabi all waiting to show their true ability.

[Hugmenot]

The deficiencies are there mainly because of Bargnani. If the plan was to trade Bargnani then a high profile C would not be the target with JV coming over next year and Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, and Solomon Alabi all waiting to show their true ability.

Consider the team minus Bargnani: the deficiency is still there. By addressing the center position, BryCo is in a position to trade Bargnani if he so desired because he's not stuck with Bargnani having to play center all year if, for example, Ed Davis has not bulked up over the Summer or if the Raptors do not like the idea of him playing center.

What about JV? You think he will come in next year and be able to assume 30+ mpg effectively? I would love for him to do that but I have serious doubts as he is not dominating a league which is nowhere close, talentwise, to the NBA. If BryCo was already planning to give JV 30+ mpg a game next year, I would say he is also planning next season to be another development season. Not only that would put him in a very difficult situation in regards to negotiating a contract extension for himself, I suspect it would aleniate his players for failure to demonstrate he is willing to provide them some help.

I think BryCo is a rational human being and he is trying to improve his team while keeping options open for a not-too-distant future.

[jimmie]

Consider the team minus Bargnani: the deficiency is still there. By addressing the center position, BryCo is in a position to trade Bargnani if he so desired because he's not stuck with Bargnani having to play center all year if, for example, Ed Davis has not bulked up over the Summer or if the Raptors do not like the idea of him playing center.

What about JV? You think he will come in next year and be able to assume 30+ mpg effectively? I would love for him to do that but I have serious doubts as he is not dominating a league which is nowhere close, talentwise, to the NBA. If BryCo was already planning to give JV 30+ mpg a game next year, I would say he is also planning next season to be another development season. Not only that would put him in a very difficult situation in regards to negotiating a contract extension for himself, I suspect it would aleniate his players for failure to demonstrate he is willing to provide them some help.

I think BryCo is a rational human being and he is trying to improve his team while keeping options open for a not-too-distant future.

I guess this is true. I'm sort of against bringing in an expensive free agent C because I'd like to see how this thing could grow organically like the Thunder did (acknowledging the challenges of keeping such a team together long-term). But the scenario you describe would be an interesting alternative with more short-term excitement value. I wouldn't put it past Colangelo, because he DOES love to make a splash.

If they get Chandler or (preferably) Gasol and also manage to trade Bargnani for something worthwhile, that might be fun to see. Both Amir and Davis are currently better-suited to guarding PFs anyway, and Valanciunas would still be a different type of player than either Gasol or Chandler when he comes over.

The question is: what could they get for Bargnani?

[Hugmenot]

The question is: what could they get for Bargnani?

You may want to jump to the http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/fo...Proposal-Forum and see for yourself how many trade ideas involve Bargnani.

[stretch]

Because of Bargnani's hefty contract and his not having lived up to his potential so far, the Raptors would likely have to accept some other team's weighty contract in return for Andrea.

[jimmie]

You may want to jump to the http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/fo...Proposal-Forum and see for yourself how many trade ideas involve Bargnani.

Fans' trade proposals are a fun exercise, but rarely reflect the actual NBA trade environment. It was more of a rhetorical question. I have no idea what the market for Bargs might be, and I don't think too many fans do, either -- especially Toronto fans who are biased by watching him play the past 5 years. I still think there are probably 5-10 teams that think he's a valid reclamation project (and Toronto might still be one of those 5-10...).

[mcHAPPY]

Fans' trade proposals are a fun exercise, but rarely reflect the actual NBA trade environment. It was more of a rhetorical question. I have no idea what the market for Bargs might be, and I don't think too many fans do, either -- especially Toronto fans who are biased by watching him play the past 5 years. I still think there are probably 5-10 teams that think he's a valid reclamation project (and Toronto might still be one of those 5-10...).

The great thing about Bargnani trade proposals by Raptors fans is they are either:

1) ridiculously undervalued

2) ridiculously overvalued.


Very rare is there an in between in my opinion.

[planetmars]

I consider the NBA to have 5 class levels. The franchise players, perrenial all stars, starters with significant minutes/roll players, 7-10 bench players, and scrubs/bottom feeders.

When trading players I think you could trade a class A player for a class A player. A class B player for a class B player, or mix and match (B+C for A).

I think Bargnani is paid like a class B player but is really a class C player. So a trade to get another class B player is difficult, but a trade to get a class C might work. However with his salary it will be difficult.

People will have different opinions though. Some GM's may think of him like a Class B and could get a player like Horford, Boozer or Bogut. I don't think that's the case, and I think he's more similar to a guy like Lopez, Odom or Turk.

If a team needs another offensive boost to become a danger in the playoffs they may be willing to give up a type C (or D) player with hopefully a draft pick. But I'm not sure what his trade value really is - he's an enigma.

My hope is that we can swing him for a draft pick (since I hope we are rebuilding) and an expirty type D player. Getting a type D player straight up is not a good deal for us.. swapping him for a type C that makes less money and has less years is also enticing - but would be harder to pull off. Getting a type B would be impossible in my opinion.

EDIT - I actually got this idea from someone else, but can't remember where I read it - thought it was very interesting and made a lot of sense.