Chisholm: What to do about the C position? Forget Tyson Chandler (212)

[Bendit]

If the rumours are true about BC going hard for a C this year, it maybe that the crop next year is mighty thin (see link) ...Howard (no chance) and Kaman are the only ones worth going after. If his plan is to go all hog that he do so for either Gasol or Jordan else stay the course. I just hope the Chandler pursuit is a smokescreen. I would overpay Gasol to make it really difficult for him to refuse and Memphis to match (they are trying to trade Gay I read to reduce payroll). This guy comes to play and makes others around him better. Jordan would be my second choice (his achilles right now is his FT shooting wickedly bad @ 45%...ouch).

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-nba-free-agents/

[Tim W.]

If the rumours are true about BC going hard for a C this year, it maybe that the crop next year is mighty thin (see link) ...Howard (no chance) and Kaman are the only ones worth going after. If his plan is to go all hog that he do so for either Gasol or Jordan else stay the course. I just hope the Chandler pursuit is a smokescreen. I would overpay Gasol to make it really difficult for him to refuse and Memphis to match (they are trying to trade Gay I read to reduce payroll). This guy comes to play and makes others around him better. Jordan would be my second choice (his achilles right now is his FT shooting wickedly bad @ 45%...ouch).

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-nba-free-agents/

It's just too bad they didn't draft a center in the last draft when they could have. Then they wouldn't have to go after a free agent one.

[SuperRaptor]

T.O sports fans have advacted tanking plenty of times over the last 20 years.. raps, leafs, jays to a certain degree.. its this fan mentality that creates an atmosphere were losing is acceptable & inevitable.. too pessamistic for my liking... the whole idea is to play to your potential..give all every night & to believe u can win..if all the young guys we have already mail it in night after night because were expected to loose, what good does that do for there development.. same goes for GM,s, coach's.. everyone has to try to be better & get better..
one thing the raps have always been known for was having great young talent.. daman, VC,Tmac, camby, bosh, to name a few.. our prob. revolves around keeping the guys we have... why u may ask.... because we NEVER win...were always talking tanking... the endless rebuild... i for 1 am tired of that.. we need to create a winning attitude..all the top teams have it...since when have any of them advocated tanking??? NEVER

while i some what agree to triano working with what he had... he never exactly bread confidence..& his defensive scheme was trash.. u play guys staight up till u need help... not constantly try to stear peeps into help defence... its way too predictable..

ive said my piece

u have the right to your opinion as do I

Amen.

[Bendit]

It's just too bad they didn't draft a center in the last draft when they could have. Then they wouldn't have to go after a free agent one.

True.

The only logic I see with this alleged push is that BC is attempting to ensure that JV does not get his feet put to the fire immediately as a starter as well as have a marketable asset (good centres are hard to come by) if JV is in fact the real thing in immediate fashion. If successful he also has the option to shop your fav player Bargs before his value is not able to be glossed over (maybe he has a taker already). Even snake oil salesmen have their limitations.

Acquisition of a good centre I dont believe will improve the team's fortunes too drastically in the coming season and most of all none of us are privy to "the plan" which makes so much of the conjecture here so futile sometimes....but titillating I suppose.

[planetmars]

Toronto fields a competitive team this year while having 2 first round draft picks.

I'm a bit confused by this remark.. I thought you wanted to swap picks. So Charlotte gets Toronto's 2012 pick, and Toronto gets Charlotte's. So Toronto would still only have 1 first round pick.

Unless you meant swapping the 2012 pick for a 2013 pick. Not sure Charlotte would do that, not when 2012 is a loaded draft.

Also, looking at the draft futures.. the 2012 pick is owed to Chicago. It's lottery protected but I believe that means we would have to wait until the 2012 draft to trade for that pick.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/dra...rafts/detailed

[malefax]

So you think that Colangelo intentionally hurt Bargnani, Amir, Calderon and Reggie in order to lose more games?

And let me ask you a question. Would the Heat have done better than they have if they hadn't lost the 25 games they did the season before they drafted Dwyane Wade and instead drafted, say, TJ Ford, who was drafted just 3 spots later?

You forgot Barbosa, who was also 'injured'. And yes, I do think BC 'injured' them, in the sense that I think he said to Triano "take them out of the lineup, they're injured". That is how you tank games. Let me put it this way: I think if Toronto was playing with a playoff seed on the line, they would all have been in the lineup. At the end of the season, players are generally not at 100%, but I don't think most of those guys had any need to be sitting except to improve Toronto's playoff seeding.

Let me answer your question with another question: was Dwayne Wade picked in the top 5? Because I seem to recall saying: picks AFTER the top 5 level off a lot.

[Tim W.]

You forgot Barbosa, who was also 'injured'. And yes, I do think BC 'injured' them, in the sense that I think he said to Triano "take them out of the lineup, they're injured". That is how you tank games. Let me put it this way: I think if Toronto was playing with a playoff seed on the line, they would all have been in the lineup. At the end of the season, players are generally not at 100%, but I don't think most of those guys had any need to be sitting except to improve Toronto's playoff seeding.

Let me answer your question with another question: was Dwayne Wade picked in the top 5? Because I seem to recall saying: picks AFTER the top 5 level off a lot.

Well, yes, Dwayne Wade was actually picked 5th.

And I never said that after 5 they level off, I said this...

In the last 10 years, there have been 10 players who made the All NBA first or second team who were drafted outside of the top 5, so it seems, on the surface, you might be onto something. A closer look says something else, though. Included on that list are Gilbert Arenas, Peja and Sam Cassell, players who have never gone to the All-Star game more than 3 times in their career, so it's hard to call them franchise players. Ben Wallace went 4 times, and while he's was made a huge impact on the defensive end, his lack of offense precludes me from calling him a franchise player.

Of the 6 players left, only Steve Nash and Paul Pierce were actually drafted out of college. And both of them were drafted as low as they were in large part due to their believed lack of potential. Neither possessed the elite athleticism that teams like. And only Nash has shown to be the type of player to be able to put a team on his back.

In other words, if you're drafting outside of the top ten, the chances of finding an elite player is incredibly small, and the chances are even smaller of finding one in the NCAA, where presumably you can get a better look at them than elsewhere.

As for the injuries, it's all well and good to get into the conspiracy theories, but a few things wrong with it. The first is that Colangelo isn't going to fire Triano as coach after making him throw games. Secondly, and more importantly, it's pretty common knowledge that pretty much all those players were, in fact, injured (including Barbosa, who needed "surgery").

Besides, it's pretty common for teams, especially teams out of the playoff hunt, to experiment with lineups in the last couple of weeks to take an extra long look at some players who haven't played yet. ALL the teams do it.

Most importantly, take a look at their month by month record...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...R/2011/splits/

It's not as if they finished the season of any worse than normal. Wouldn't that be a necessity if you want to tank?

[ceez]

Word is they're looking at Chuck Hayes.

Good inexpensive pickup.

[ceez]

I really don't want Nene

[Tim W.]

Word is they're looking at Chuck Hayes.

Good inexpensive pickup.

Ironic that he's shorter than any of the PFs on the team, including the one who says he not a center.

[Balls of Steel]

What about having your cake and eating it too?

Here is a scenario to add to post 67 :

- sign Tyson Chandler for all the reasons I gave.

- attempt to acquire Boris Diaw and right to swap first round draft pick in 2012 from Charlotte for TPE.


Toronto certainly doesn't tank.
MJ saves $9 million and still has a first round pick.
JV gets his mentor and transition to the NBA.
Toronto still gets an opportunity to get a top draft choice.


My point is Toronto has enough assets and flexibility to do more than throw in the towel on 2011-12.

I dunno man, not at the cost of Ed Davis. He's still developing and is under team control. He's not a franchise player but is very hard-nosed. He has grit and can develop into something special someday. I'm in the school of leaving things the way they are. The new CBA will make BC think twice about adding salary to this team. We have good pieces that should be allowed to grow together. Otherwise, the lure of future picks will turn this team's player turnover rate higher than that of a local Taco Bell employee roster.

[Balls of Steel]

Word is they're looking at Chuck Hayes.

Good inexpensive pickup.

I don't want "stop gap" additions to this team. The only person that makes sense is Mbah a Moute. Additions to this team must have long-term written all over them. Teams such as the Knicks are trying to load up (with CP3 as the latest rumoured addition), but they're gutting the future as a result. Perhaps Toronto could do things in reverse (stock up on talented youth, be mediocre for a while and wait for the big 3's around the league to get old (who's to say that that is not the plan all along?).

[mcHAPPY]

I'm a bit confused by this remark.. I thought you wanted to swap picks. So Charlotte gets Toronto's 2012 pick, and Toronto gets Charlotte's. So Toronto would still only have 1 first round pick.

Unless you meant swapping the 2012 pick for a 2013 pick. Not sure Charlotte would do that, not when 2012 is a loaded draft.

Also, looking at the draft futures.. the 2012 pick is owed to Chicago. It's lottery protected but I believe that means we would have to wait until the 2012 draft to trade for that pick.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/dra...rafts/detailed

You are correct. With the protections in place on the selection though I am pretty sure the Raptors and Bobcats could make arrangements for the pick in the event it was a lottery pick since it is protected. OKC sent the Clippers pick to Boston with these stipulations:

2012 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
The Los Angeles Clippers' own 2012 first round draft pick to Boston via Oklahoma City (top 10 protected in the 2012 draft, top 10 protected in 2013, top 10 protected in 2014, top 10 protected in 2015 and unprotected in the 2016 Draft). In addition, if the Los Angeles Clippers are required to send their 2012 first round pick pursuant to the above and are also entitled to receive Minnesota's own 2012 first round draft, then Boston via Oklahoma City shall receive the lesser of the Los Angeles Clippers' own 2012 first round pick and Minnesota's own 2012 first round pick. [L.A. Clippers -Oklahoma City, 6/24/2010 and then Boston - Oklahoma City, 2/24/2011]

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/dra...#ixzz1fNV0eTJw

I admit I may be incorrect on this though.

[mcHAPPY]

Oh, so the Raptors still trade Ed Davis away and keep Bargnani. Then no.

I really don't think even with the moves you mention that Toronto fields a competitive team. I think they field a less bad team. And for that I don't see the point.

Quite frankly, I have absolutely no hope for Bargnani. None. I don't see him playing beside a defensive center doing anything for him. And I don't see a team with him playing heavy minutes being able to do ANYTHING in the playoffs because teams are simply going to exploit him. He's not Dirk, who is Dwight Howard defensively and on the boards compared to Bargnani.

I also don't see the point in Charlotte giving up potentially the best player in the draft instead of simply holding onto Diaw for another 6 months. I'd rather offer to take Diop off their hands in exchange for swapping picks and saving the money on Chandler. The Raptors get a defensive center, don't push themselves out of the running for the top pick, don't spend the money on Chandler and have more cap space next summer. Plus, Diop, while obviously nowhere near Chandler's skill level, has been around long enough to be able to show Valanciunas a thing or two and can start until Valanciunas is ready. And he's not much of a risk because he's only got two years left on his contract.

Tim - your opinion on Bargnani is well known and warranted. It is still your opinion though. My opinion at this time is he shocks us all in 2011-12 with a defensive C next to him for the reasons I gave in an earlier post:

2) Bargnani is going to shock us all. Anyone who follows the stock market knows when pessimism reaches its lowest is when markets generally skyrocket up. Bargnani's stock cannot get any lower. I think the combination of not having to play C, to not have to be the last line of defense, improved conditioning, an end to the coddling from BC/Gheridini, and a hard ass coach will bring out the best in him. I'm not expecting miracles but defensive production like David West or rebounding numbers like Nene are not unrealistic. If he can do this, any team in the league would want him.

Historical evidence certainly gives support to your views. However past performance is not indicative of future returns.

Feel free to continue to disagree which, of course, goes without saying.

[GarbageTime]

Tim - your opinion on Bargnani is well known and warranted. It is still your opinion though. My opinion at this time is he shocks us all in 2011-12 with a defensive C next to him for the reasons I gave in an earlier post:



Historical evidence certainly gives support to your views. However past performance is not indicative of future returns.

Feel free to continue to disagree which, of course, goes without saying.

you have quickly become quite a Bargnani optimist Matt. Don't worry there will always be room for you on Bargnani pessimist train... need to make new seats every couple months anyways.


I also don't expect a single 'bad' team to be willing to trade/move/swing 2012 picks... they will be horded and in high demand. Especially not Charlotte. I think they made it clear this past draft they are taking the 'OKC' approach. Short of something magical happening, like Biyombo and Kemba battling out for rookie of the year honours, they will be the worst team in the league.