Is the Future not as Bright? (or is the future brighter? see post 130)

[Apollo]

In closing about DeRozan for Mayo:

Chris Mannix: With respect to O.J. Mayo, I'm told Memphis is looking for a No. 1 pick in virtually every discussion they have had about Mayo. Twitter

Source: Hoopshype.com

[big_chris]

Source: HoopsWorld.com chat with Brotherston.

Not sure where Steve gets the number of 4 new players but the underlined section is an interesting comment and most specific thing I've read on next year so far this season.

2 lotto picks, 1 free agent, 1 trade acquisition, after a roster balancing move next summer.

[planetmars]

2 lotto picks, 1 free agent, 1 trade acquisition, after a roster balancing move next summer.

Unless you believe a trade is going to happen, Toronto only has one first round pick (which will be a lottery unless something miraculous happens). They do have a second rounder as well, which should be in the low 30's.

[mcHAPPY]

Unless you believe a trade is going to happen, Toronto only has one first round pick (which will be a lottery unless something miraculous happens). They do have a second rounder as well, which should be in the low 30's.

I think he is referring to JV.

Lotto pick 1 - JV
Lotto pick 2 - TBA
1 free agent - TBA
1 roster balancing trade - bye, bye to a PF


By the way, in my opinion, that is very sound reading between the lines and forecasting. My original point was I had heard nothing on the '4 new rotational players' comments that Brotherston had made. I wonder if that is something he let slip from an 'off the record' discussion with someone directly related to the Raptors organization.

[slaw]

They're in a rebuild. Waiting three years on a player is par for the course.

Waiting on guys is fine if they are worth it. In Derozan's case, it's already been 2+ years and all of the same issues are still there that were there on day one. Are there examples of shooting guards who are below average for their first 5 years turning into all-stars after that? If not, do you really invest another 2 or 3 years in a guy who's a replacement level player (or worse)? Seems like a massive investment for little return, not to mention the opportunity cost.

[Soft Euro]

Waiting on guys is fine if they are worth it. In Derozan's case, it's already been 2+ years and all of the same issues are still there that were there on day one. Are there examples of shooting guards who are below average for their first 5 years turning into all-stars after that? If not, do you really invest another 2 or 3 years in a guy who's a replacement level player (or worse)? Seems like a massive investment for little return, not to mention the opportunity cost.

Well ... some people said Bargnani was more of a shooting guard, does he count? More seriously: he doesn't need to become an allstar of course, just a valuable player for us to make it worth to invest in him now. He is the most important player to look at for development at this team (without Bargnani). What else do you want to do? Throw him in the garbage bin this year to focus on Forbes developing? Really, what other good options are there this year, but to look at how he (foremost) and some others develop. There is no better option for this year.

[mcHAPPY]

Waiting on guys is fine if they are worth it. In Derozan's case, it's already been 2+ years and all of the same issues are still there that were there on day one. Are there examples of shooting guards who are below average for their first 5 years turning into all-stars after that? If not, do you really invest another 2 or 3 years in a guy who's a replacement level player (or worse)? Seems like a massive investment for little return, not to mention the opportunity cost.

The only thing DeRozan has proven offensively at this time is he is not capable of carrying a team on offense and he is not a first option and possibly not even a second option. Look at the other players DeRozan is out there playing with on the first unit. With JJ, ED, and Amir it is a perimeter double team, lane clogging delight. JJ rarely creates for himself and Ed and Amir, god love them, but they are garbage men.

It will be very interesting to see what happens when Bargnani returns and defenses start focusing on shutting AB down again.

Also, he is still just 22 years of age and would be a college senior had he stayed at USC.

[Puffer]

...Look at the other players DeRozan is out there playing with on the first unit...

Too true. With Bargs gone, the only thing the other teams have to worry about is keying on DeRozan. Barbosa, Amir, Davis and JJ are not going to win any games for the Raps.

[Apollo]

Waiting on guys is fine if they are worth it. In Derozan's case, it's already been 2+ years and all of the same issues are still there that were there on day one. Are there examples of shooting guards who are below average for their first 5 years turning into all-stars after that?

Alex English immediately comes to mind. Maybe not a SG but he was out on the wing. DeRozan could switch to the three if he adds the mucsle needed.

The only thing DeRozan has proven offensively at this time is he is not capable of carrying a team on offense and he is not a first option and possibly not even a second option. Look at the other players DeRozan is out there playing with on the first unit. With JJ, ED, and Amir it is a perimeter double team, lane clogging delight. JJ rarely creates for himself and Ed and Amir, god love them, but they are garbage men.

It will be very interesting to see what happens when Bargnani returns and defenses start focusing on shutting AB down again.

Also, he is still just 22 years of age and would be a college senior had he stayed at USC.

I agree. DeRozan is out there working with a bunch of flow killers. Bargnani is the only one out there who takes pressure off him and he's out. DeRozan doesn't need to be an elite SG to be useful and by dealing him they're certainly not going to find the guy slaw is dreaming about. Good post Matt, the guy is still very young. Wade was playing his rookie season at DeMar's age.

Edit: I think an aggressive PG, the addition of JV and the 1st rounder will have a big impact on DeMar's game. A full summer working with NBA coaches would have been tremendous for him as well given that he was left to his own devices and tried to reshape his game on his own this off-season...

[mcHAPPY]

Is the Future Brighter?

I am prepared to be called fanboy, homer, stooopid, or whatever else but hear me out.....


Is the future for the Raps brighter?

Yes, things have been disappointing with DeMar and Ed Davis. However, the bright side is a guy has stepped up of late in James Johnson. Will he be the starting small forward going forward? God, I hope not. But he is showing in flashes throughout the year and 2 of the last 3 games that when he plays the game the right way and within his abilities, he can be very effective.

Now James Johnson isn't the sole reason for my optimism. The reason for optimism is we are finding out who CAN'T play. DeMar and Ed are showing they may not be able to produce at the NBA level in a winning situation. What do I mean by that? I mean when the game is played in a manner that elite teams and championship teams play, they do not appear to be successful - thus far - maybe they'll turn it around yet. They have had their success playing in a system with little accountability, no attention to defense, and with nothing on the line. They may be good examples of great players on sh!t teams.

Ok, Matt, I've read this far but where is the optimism? Well, in knowing who isn't a winner we can get rid of them and stop pretending we have this amazing young core going forward.

So we take a step backwards? NO! We find guys who want to play the game the right way through up coming draft, free agency, and trades. While I am sh!tting on DeMar and Ed I do think they have value around the league because a) they are young, b) they are on rookie contracts, and c) because they might better fit with teams that would have, frankly, better players around them (like Memphis or Indiana, for example!) reducing their role with other players making them play better.

My final stab at the brighter future lies with Dwane Casey. He is a great coach. He knows the game. Look at what he has done defensively in 6 weeks with the roster of players Toronto has. Imagine if: Bargnani never missed 10 games, there was one more player who could create his own shot, and there was a SF that could stick a jumper consistently - if that happened we'd be whining about not enough lottery balls and/or being stuck on the mediocrity treadmill. The most important thing about Casey though, in my opinion, is, to steal an old cliche, he talks the talk and walks the walk. He said he would hold guys accountable and that is what he has done. DeMar: 23 minutes and sat on the bench to end the game. Ed: 3 minutes, 2 fouls, get that garbage out of here.

You can have all the talent in the world but if poor work habits or a losing mentality is considered acceptable, you'll never win. 2009-2010 proved that. Toronto is currently struggling with the talent but poor work habits and a losing mentality is clearly not considered acceptable. Once the talent arrives, look out.

The glass is half empty crowd will say the talent will never come.
The glass is half full crowed will see my point.

*By the way, I still think DeMar is snapped out of the funk by Valentine's Day*

[Nilanka]

Interesting post Matt, but if we do give up on DeRozan and/or Davis, would we be able to get much value in return if they don't improve their numbers? We'd be dealing from a position of weakness/desperation, and I'm sure opposing GMs will smell blood right now.

[mcHAPPY]

Interesting post Matt, but if we do give up on DeRozan and/or Davis, would we be able to get much value in return if they don't improve their numbers? We'd be dealing from a position of weakness/desperation, and I'm sure opposing GMs will smell blood right now.

I think both players are better, and will show it, by the end of the season and I am not advocating moving them right now. Looking forward to draft night or off season is more in line with my thoughts. When they turn it around though, I still think the idea of moving them has to be strongly considered in the off season.

But lets say they don't turn it around, how much value are they providing at this time? From his head coaching experience in Minnesota and short tenure in Toronto, I think Casey is the type of coach who can make players look very good if they buy in to his system. I'm not sure DeMar and ED are buying in to the system right now. It has only been 11 games but it is very clear Bargnani is buying whatever it is Casey is selling.

[planetmars]

Any player in my opinion is tradeable. But I don't like the idea of trading Demar just for the sakes of getting rid of him. He is on his rookie deal. It would be a completely different issue if they were getting paid real dollars. That was why I was not so happy with Bargnani. He was being paid like a #2 or #3 and was playing like a #7 or #8.

Demar I believe likes Toronto. His attitude off season seems to suggest that he's a fan of the city and likes it here. If Demar continues to play mediocre than you know his next contract is going to be pretty cheap. That could work out in Toronto's favour as Demar continues to mature. I think Demar and his rookie contract are worth more to Toronto than as an asset to another team, even if he continues to flounder the rest of the year. The big question mark is if Demar continues to play like he has this season, then what should his next contract be worth? I hope Bryan doesn't splurge on him like he's known to do.

Davis was the 13th pick in a draft. He was considered a steal for that position, but perhaps a lot of other GM's saw something that they didn't like. We've seen some potential in him, especially with his basketball smarts. But he seems disinterested for the most part. The only reason I'd want to trade him is if the PF depth is an issue going forward. I don't like the idea of Amir playing center and I think his recent play is more so because he plays out of position. He will never say anything publicly but I think he probably dreads coming in to the 'office' every morning knowing that he's going to be taking a beating. If Davis is traded it should be to move Amir back to his desired spot, backing up Bargnani. But the only thing I could see us getting for Davis would be a high pick (probably non-lottery) at this point. It might just be better to hold on to him as he doesn't take up much cap space at all.

But I do think the future is bright. Casey is our game changer. I think he's the perfect coach for this developing team. Next year he should have some talent to work with (JV, rookie, and possibly some big trade/free agent asset), a proper training camp and lots of practice time with a better schedule.

[Fully]

I agree with a lot of what you said Matt. We need to figure out exactly what we have in these players, even if those results turn out to be dissapointing.

However I can't buy into itequalling an "even brighter future than we may have originally thought", since their regression just adds to the already long list of needs we have moving forward and hurts their trade stock at the same time.

I do appreciate the optimism though!

[mcHAPPY]

I agree with a lot of what you said Matt. We need to figure out exactly what we have in these players, even if those results turn out to be dissapointing.

However I can't buy into itequalling an "even brighter future than we may have originally thought", since their regression just adds to the already long list of needs we have moving forward and hurts their trade stock at the same time.

I do appreciate the optimism though!

I know. It is hard to swallow. I'm not half full - maybe 60% full?

I do think Toronto is farther ahead though the sooner they find out who they want to keep.

I do think DeMar and Ed would bring something back to Toronto. It wouldn't be a total waste if they were dealt in the off season.