#FireCasey

[Axel]

Since their inception they are a bottom 5 team in regular season.

They have been to the playoffs 6 times in 20 years.

They have never won a 7 game series and are 1-6 in playoff series.




We are all Raptor fans here but, seriously, anyone who knows the team's history should know, historically speaking, the franchise sucks.

Masai is the first GM who actually seems to have a plan outside of 2 years and, unlike Colangelo, is not changing that plan year to year.

Plus by being the only team to never win 50 games, by definition "franchise best in wins" is the worst in the league.

[mcHAPPY]

Plus by being the only team to never win 50 games, by definition "franchise best in wins" is the worst in the league.

And then there is that.


But don't worry, we are not alone.


The Bobcats/Hornets have never won 50!


*The old hornets/current Pelicans have won 50 though.

[golden]

Plus by being the only team to never win 50 games, by definition "franchise best in wins" is the worst in the league.

Ironically, the "Wall of Gaylord" is a Purple Room.



Meet the Fokkers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-A6zERn6yo

[S.R.]

I'm not a fan of those reports/studies that show coaches don't have an impact. I think they just show the failure of current statistical methods to capture the impact of coaching. You can see the effect the coach has on the floor and if you've played, you know.

[raptors999]

I'm not a fan of those reports/studies that show coaches don't have an impact. I think they just show the failure of current statistical methods to capture the impact of coaching. You can see the effect the coach has on the floor and if you've played, you know.

Casey got his ass kicked by Carlisle, Stevens, SVG and others regular season. Guys like Pop dont care enough to try. Even Monty Williams without AD beat Casey, or Casey couldn't beat a NOP team without AD and Tyreke cantshoot Evans. He also lost to the Knicks, when the Raptors were freefalling

[Wild-ling#1]

Full Definition of SCAPEGOAT
1: a goat upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the people after which he is sent into the wilderness in the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur
2 a : one that bears the blame for others
b : one that is the object of irrational hostility

So there you are, focusing only on (some of) the 33 losses and none of the 49 wins.

In a discussion of Casey's strengths and weaknesses, talking about how the "franchise sucks", "historically", and not it's (more relevant) upward trend under our current coach.

It's defensible, to a point, to "make up one's mind". But having done so, learning is retarded and meaningful discussion still-born.

It might be interesting to consider how, for example and in a sense, Lou Williams was a lovely man, but with an exquisitely narrow skill-set that made him, practically, "uncoachable" ... doomed to win 6th man awards, but never start.

We might discuss how the new additions, and the new roster overall, might be more amenable to guidance by the new staff ... and how the new staff might come together to share responsibilities.

We certainly could discuss the pitfalls of "getting out of the gate" so well that a low-percentage shooter like DeMar and a "take charge" point-guard like Kyle might be led too far astray to be reined in ... and what lessons might have been learned. And what we might be looking for as positive signs, early, that progress here is possible.

As I've said before, I'm here to learn, to enhance my fan experience for a very interesting upcoming season. But the "Casey sucks" contingent, I suggest, make this difficult.

Recently some sage advice was offered about how to deal with over-heated threads by more experienced posters. "Go away" (for awhile) was the gist of it. "Get out before the lock-down".

Doesn't seem , currently at least, like there's anything else to do on this subject. But I was warned, I guess: The title of the thread is "Fire Casey".

What was I thinking?

Okay, then ... Have at it boys ...

[thead]

If the argument is that you have to consider the absolute entirety of everything Casey has done

I think the assessment would be that he is a good man, good for a culture, capable of installing a well oiled defense etc...

but the results show, he isn't the guy you want in late game situations, he isn't the guy you want developing rookies.

Casey absolutely has a role in the NBA, I think he should probably still be an assistant. But...ya know...prove me wrong this season. I think everyone is capable of learning and growing

[Wild-ling#1]

If the argument is that you have to consider the absolute entirety of everything Casey has done

I think the assessment would be that he is a good man, good for a culture, capable of installing a well oiled defense etc...

but the results show, he isn't the guy you want in late game situations, he isn't the guy you want developing rookies.

Casey absolutely has a role in the NBA, I think he should probably still be an assistant. But...ya know...prove me wrong this season. I think everyone is capable of learning and growing

Well, I think most coaches sit on the hot-seat every year. (Fucking stressful job)

While most small outfits, and some bigger ones, are run by one man/woman (sometimes a "visionary") most successful, complex organizations are run by an effective management team.

It seems to me Casey has been given assistants with whom he can work (and to whom he can effectively delegate ... if he's able. Entrepreneurs know that that can be hard). Dan's posts (#'s 4 and 11) on the "Advice to Casey" thread, seem to imply this (when he recommends Nurse and Kalamian install "Horns" and "Ice", etc.).

But Jack Armstrong has questioned whether or not this team will have enough scoring to make the playoffs this year. Depends on players improving and learning from last year (esp. JV, Demar and Kyle ... Carroll seems a "gimme") and "buying in".

So, for me, I think it's very difficult to set any sort of baseline for reasonable expectations for this team.

But you have to figure that Masai and Casey both know, all too well, what the "knocks" against him are. That certainly includes situational play-calling. But I think the latter is rectifiable, by any number of means/contingencies.

Such a transitional year. All the changes mean that there's much work to be done bringing this all together ... Exciting. Perilous. Interesting.

[Axel]

It seems to me Casey has been given assistants with whom he can work (and to whom he can effectively delegate ... if he's able.

But Jack Armstrong has questioned whether or not this team will have enough scoring to make the playoffs this year. Depends on players improving and learning from last year (esp. JV, Demar and Kyle ... Carroll seems a "gimme") and "buying in".

So, for me, I think it's very difficult to set any sort of baseline for reasonable expectations for this team.

.

Didn't we change assistants last year for this very reason? Not really sure new assistants (again) is particularly a good reason for optimism from the coach since history is repeating itself.

Do you think this team is less talented than last year?

If not, then natural progression for expectation this year should be winning a series (although that seemed to be the goal last year too).

Regardless of team flaws, anything less than reaching the second round will be disappointing.

[slaw]

I'm not a fan of those reports/studies that show coaches don't have an impact. I think they just show the failure of current statistical methods to capture the impact of coaching. You can see the effect the coach has on the floor and if you've played, you know.

It partly depends on the sport. I think you can make a pretty reasonable argument that even a very good baseball manager has very little impact over 162 games. He can be as innovative and creative as he wants in terms of player deployment but that pesky regression means if you don't have good players you're still done for....

But, part of this is just the way things are. In every single field there are a few really good people, a few really bad people, and the vast majority that are all pretty much interchangeable. Most NBA coaches are average and they do average jobs. A few are awesome and a few are terrible.

I'm not really invested in the Casey debate: I think he got too much credit early on in his tenure and I think he's taking way too much heat from the Raptors internet world for last season. Overall, he seems like an average, entirely serviceable coach who gets about what you'd expect out of his players. I didn't think he'd survive the playoff debacle last season cause it appeared that his best players quit on him but, obviously, Ujiri sees it differently. Lowry falling apart physically in January exposed how fragile the team was and I'm not convinced another coach would have made a material difference. Perhaps that influenced Ujiri's thinking or perhaps the GM really didn't like the roster and viewed it as the issue and not the coach.

I guess we'll see but I do think the natural progression for this roster means winning a playoff series (or even two depending on matchups) and if that doesn't happen I don't see how Casey gets another shot.

[Wild-ling#1]

Didn't we change assistants last year for this very reason? Not really sure new assistants (again) is particularly a good reason for optimism from the coach since history is repeating itself.

Do you think this team is less talented than last year?

If not, then natural progression for expectation this year should be winning a series (although that seemed to be the goal last year too).

Regardless of team flaws, anything less than reaching the second round will be disappointing.

I didn't express optimism. I said it is difficult (for me at least and some others) to define expectations because (for example):

Jack Armstrong has questioned whether or not this team will have enough scoring to make the playoffs this year. Depends on players improving and learning from last year (esp. JV, Demar and Kyle ... Carroll seems a "gimme") and "buying in".

Seems you missed that sense of things. Anyway ... "Second round or bust". Heard and understood.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Didn't we change assistants last year for this very reason? Not really sure new assistants (again) is particularly a good reason for optimism from the coach since history is repeating itself.

Do you think this team is less talented than last year?

If not, then natural progression for expectation this year should be winning a series (although that seemed to be the goal last year too).

Regardless of team flaws, anything less than reaching the second round will be disappointing.

I didn't express optimism. I said it is difficult (for me at least and some others) to define expectations because (for example):



Seems you missed that sense of things. Anyway ... "Second round or bust". Heard and understood.

Last offseason MU publically stated that the team - roster and coaching staff - would be evaluated on the playoffs the following season (this past season). He also stated that the expectations were to improve on the previous season, which was a game-7 loss in the 1st round of the playoffs that the Raptors had a last-second shot to win.

Aside from making a last-second shot to tie the game and then lose in overtime of game-7 in the first round, what else would be considered an improvement, other than advancing to the 2nd round (at least)?

Those expectations for last season weren't dreamed up by a rabid fan-base; those were the expectations publically stated by the team's GM.

That's precisely why so many fans were shocked that DC is returning for the upcoming season, given that the team failed to meet MU's expectations. The roster has been pretty significantly overhauled (2 new starters - Carroll & Patterson, and 4 new backups - Biyombo, Scola, Ross & Joseph) and a couple assistant coaches (including one of the two primary assistants - Bayno) have been replaced, yet the head coach survived. I think it's fair to speculate as to whether he would have been back this season, had he not had another $4M guaranteed season on his contract.

[Axel]

I didn't express optimism. I said it is difficult (for me at least and some others) to define expectations because (for example):


Seems you missed that sense of things. Anyway ... "Second round or bust". Heard and understood.

Sorry, when you said he has "assistants he can work with" before the "but Jack says", I assumed that your positive sounding statement meant you had optimism.

So because Jack is concerned with scoring you don't feel that advancing further than last year (and the year before really) is a reasonable expectation?

I'm just trying to sort out where your opinion is separated from Jack's.

I don't see how a step back or holding ground can be an acceptable expectation for the season. All of our roster transactions improved the team (Amir/Scola could be considered a wash but the rest were clear improvements), and since we made it to the playoffs these last two years, making the goal to simply "make the playoffs" isn't a very positive indicator for the team. Especially when Lowry is already in his prime and DD is in a contract year. Unless Lowry or DD is dealt (thus significant roster change and possibly going young at the positions - Joseph starting for example), progression should be the only acceptable expectations for this group.

[Wild-ling#1]

Last offseason MU publically stated that the team - roster and coaching staff - would be evaluated on the playoffs the following season (this past season). He also stated that the expectations were to improve on the previous season, which was a game-7 loss in the 1st round of the playoffs that the Raptors had a last-second shot to win.

Aside from making a last-second shot to tie the game and then lose in overtime of game-7 in the first round, what else would be considered an improvement, other than advancing to the 2nd round (at least)? .... I think it's fair to speculate as to whether he would have been back this season, had he not had another $4M guaranteed season on his contract.

As Slaw just reasoned, above (maybe your posts overlapped) Ujiri must have decided that the season's expectations were defeated primarily by roster issues and that 1) it was tough to evaluate the coach or 2) there was no candidate out there worth eating the $4M coach's salary to obtain - or kinda' both ... which we all suspect (given what we heard about Thibodeau's vetting by the Raptor's organization).

But there is a kind of difficulty in evaluating both a roster and a coach at the same time (not saying it's impossible, but the difficulty is obvious - or at least seems so to me).

[Axel]

As Slaw just reasoned, above (maybe your posts overlapped) Ujiri must have decided that the season's expectations were defeated primarily by roster issues and that 1) it was tough to evaluate the coach or 2) there was no candidate out there worth eating the $4M coach's salary to obtain - or kinda' both ... which we all suspect (given what we heard about Thibodeau's vetting by the Raptor's organization).

But there is a kind of difficulty in evaluating both a roster and a coach at the same time (not saying it's impossible, but the difficulty is obvious - or at least seems so to me).

But that wouldn't remotely indicate that there is any reason to expect anything less this season.