#FireCasey

[Chr1s1anL]

Who starts is very important. Not because of some magic to do with starting. But because who plays each minute of every game, and with whom, is very important.

Both lineups will be successful with either one. Swapping one out for the other doesn't make that huge of a difference IMO.

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[DanH]

Both lineups will be successful with either one. Swapping one out for the other doesn't make that huge of a difference IMO.

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And that's a perfectly acceptable opinion that I vehemently disagree with for a variety of reasons I've tried to outline.

[Chr1s1anL]

And that's a perfectly acceptable opinion that I vehemently disagree with for a variety of reasons I've tried to outline.

And I've outlined reason of why it doesn't matter.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

For the first time in a long time the first unit out played another starting unit. It really doesn't matter who starts. Miles/Powell are both good players. It comes down to who fits better where. I initially wanted Powell to start but, I didnt realize that Miles was more than just a spot up shooter.

I also like the idea of keeping Wright/Norm together. Have gained a lot of chemistry together. Also I think It's way to rest both Deebo/Kyle.

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It does matter who starts man. Fit is really important.

Unless Siakam somehow becomes a legitimate floor spacer the lanes are gonna be so clogged in those bench units. How are DeMar or Powell supposed to drive with Wright, Siakam and Poeltl out there?

The lineups lack balance with Powell off the pine. Really hope Casey figures it out and starts him.

[Chr1s1anL]

It does matter who starts man. Fit is really important.

Unless Siakam somehow becomes a legitimate floor spacer the lanes are gonna be so clogged in those bench units. How are DeMar or Powell supposed to drive with Wright, Siakam and Poeltl out there?

The lineups lack balance with Powell off the pine. Really hope Casey figures it out and starts him.

Norm played the majority of his minutes with Siakam and Bebe last game. He got to the rim at will. Now imagine Lowry in that line up instead of Bruno. Spacing was not an issue. I believe in the improvement Siakam has made with his shot.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

Norm played the majority of his minutes with Siakam and Bebe last game. He got to the rim at will. Now imagine Lowry in that line up instead of Bruno. Spacing was not an issue. I believe in the improvement Siakam has made with his shot.

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Again it's not the Lowry lineup I'm worried about.

It's the DeMar one. Idk how you can't see that Wright-DeMar-Powell-Siakam-Poeltl is a lineup that has basically zero shooting in it. That lineup is going to play about 12 minutes a game (it'll be on basically whenever Lowry is off the floor).

[Chr1s1anL]

Again it's not the Lowry lineup I'm worried about.

It's the DeMar one. Idk how you can't see that Wright-DeMar-Powell-Siakam-Poeltl is a lineup that has basically zero shooting in it. That lineup is going to play about 12 minutes a game (it'll be on basically whenever Lowry is off the floor).

You don't have to play that lineup. If you do like I said I believe that Siakam can make enough corner 3s to keep teams honest. Norm could also be the first guard off the bench. You could see a lineup of Deebo/Norm/CJ/pskill/Yak closing out the first quarter. Than have Lowry/Wright/Powell/Pskill/Yak start the second. Previous lineups are irrelevant seeing that this is a whole new bench.

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[golden]

You don't have to play that lineup. If you do like I said I believe that Siakam can make enough corner 3s to keep teams honest. Norm could also be the first guard off the bench. You could see a lineup of Deebo/Norm/CJ/pskill/Yak closing out the first quarter. Than have Lowry/Wright/Powell/Pskill/Yak start the second. Previous lineups are irrelevant seeing that this is a whole new bench.

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I really hope so, but if we needed a stretch PF, we should have just drafted Skal - I think it was close. Siakam was clearly a second round talent, a typical raw energy big that's available in every draft and through trades. Utah drafted a similar player, Joel Bolomboy, at #52 who I think is going to be the better overall player. It almost feels like after the ECF, Masai & Casey got caught up with the idea of replacing Biyombo's hustle with Pascal and his great motor.

[Chr1s1anL]

I really hope so, but if we needed a stretch PF, we should have just drafted Skal - I think it was close. Siakam was clearly a second round talent, a typical raw energy big that's available in every draft and through trades. Utah drafted a similar player, Joel Bolomboy, at #52 who I think is going to be the better overall player. It almost feels like after the ECF, Masai & Casey got caught up with the idea of replacing Biyombo's hustle with Pascal and his great motor.

I think Siakam is more skilled than he is given credit for. Handle is good his position. He also has a good feel for the game. Made some nice passes last game. Hope he is a little more aggrive next game.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

I really hope so, but if we needed a stretch PF, we should have just drafted Skal - I think it was close. Siakam was clearly a second round talent, a typical raw energy big that's available in every draft and through trades. Utah drafted a similar player, Joel Bolomboy, at #52 who I think is going to be the better overall player. It almost feels like after the ECF, Masai & Casey got caught up with the idea of replacing Biyombo's hustle with Pascal and his great motor.

I'm still very annoyed by our decision to not take him.

[DanH]

You don't have to play that lineup. If you do like I said I believe that Siakam can make enough corner 3s to keep teams honest. Norm could also be the first guard off the bench. You could see a lineup of Deebo/Norm/CJ/pskill/Yak closing out the first quarter. Than have Lowry/Wright/Powell/Pskill/Yak start the second. Previous lineups are irrelevant seeing that this is a whole new bench.

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We don't have to but we will.

You can say previous lineups are irrelevant but they really aren't, judging by the past several years.

This is exactly what I meant by doing backflips to fix a spacing issue that can be easily fixed simply by starting the right guy. Now we are running DeMar at the point, and having Miles play the entire 1st Q to keep him on the floor with DeMar, giving Wright half the minutes he should be getting, and having all three of our wings out there in the same lineup... With the grand prize being to start a guy at the 3 who we'll probably have to bench once teams trap us again in the playoffs?

Whereas we could start Powell, run the usual bench rotation that has had tremendous success for us the past couple of seasons, and let Miles operate as a gunner off the bench (the role where he's had his success of late), playing the amount of minutes he is comfortable with (low 20's). While Powell gets to start (where he's had by far his most success), the starting lineup is trap-proof (and still has plenty of spacing), and is far less likely to have to change once the playoffs arrive, unlike the opening night starting lineups of the past two seasons. Powell plays heavier minutes than Miles, as it should be, and we are able to rest him properly for those heavier minutes because we can spread them over the entire game, rather than over only the last 16 minutes of each half.

[Chr1s1anL]

We don't have to but we will.

You can say previous lineups are irrelevant but they really aren't, judging by the past several years.

This is exactly what I meant by doing backflips to fix a spacing issue that can be easily fixed simply by starting the right guy. Now we are running DeMar at the point, and having Miles play the entire 1st Q to keep him on the floor with DeMar, giving Wright half the minutes he should be getting, and having all three of our wings out there in the same lineup... With the grand prize being to start a guy at the 3 who we'll probably have to bench once teams trap us again in the playoffs?

Whereas we could start Powell, run the usual bench rotation that has had tremendous success for us the past couple of seasons, and let Miles operate as a gunner off the bench (the role where he's had his success of late), playing the amount of minutes he is comfortable with (low 20's). While Powell gets to start (where he's had by far his most success), the starting lineup is trap-proof (and still has plenty of spacing), and is far less likely to have to change once the playoffs arrive, unlike the opening night starting lineups of the past two seasons. Powell plays heavier minutes than Miles, as it should be, and we are able to rest him properly for those heavier minutes because we can spread them over the entire game, rather than over only the last 16 minutes of each half.

I don't think we would have to bench CJ when the playoffs comes around. Also same thing could be said about JV come playoff time. You don't have a problem with him starting.

Like I said the reason why I'm ok with either one is cause Miles is more than just a spot up shooter. Unlike Carroll, Ross and PJ Tucker if you close out hard on him he can put the ball on the floor and make a play. With his shot being off he put the ball on the floor and took it right at DJ. He was also able to play in PnR where he got Ibaka and open midrange jumper that he made. When was the last time a starting 3 on our team scored in double digits while having a bad shooting night? CJ can make teams pay for trapping Deebo/Klow. Either by hitting the open 3 or putting it on the floor. Norm does the same but, is a better driver. CJ is the better shooter though.

I don't get how Powell being the first player off the bench is doing "backflips"? Isn't that what 6 man do? Be the first player off your bench. Wright was never going to play more than 20 mins a game anyways. With guys like Norm/CJ getting the majority of the minutes left for perimeter minutes. Deebo handling a lot of PG duties

Also Casey said that Deebo would be playing more of PG this year anyways.

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[LJ2]

So... we've had one of the best benches in the league for the past couple seasons but should make no effort to replicate that success? Interesting idea.

I agree that improving the starting unit is crucial, though most of the work is done with Ibaka there.

That said, between your option of having a good starting lineup and settling for whatever happens to come from the bench, and my ideal of having a good starting lineup AND trying to replicate having one of the best benches in the league, I'll take the latter.

This is what they will try and evaluate through preseason and early on in regular season. Whether they will be better off with a more potent scoring starting unit or less potent (but still good) with a more balanced bench.

Not sure I asked you this before Dan, but couldn't miles start as well as play bench minutes with DeMar? Also, if (fingers crossed) Lowry is healthy when playoffs roll around, he will likely be playing 40+ mins a game, so how would that impact those bench units? A key point I'm looking for is if CJ in the starting line up will help promote ball movement, as it gives DD/KL a solid kick out option which Norm, though capable of hitting open shots may not be able to do at the same rate as CJ.

[DanH]

This is what they will try and evaluate through preseason and early on in regular season. Whether they will be better off with a more potent scoring starting unit or less potent (but still good) with a more balanced bench.

Not sure I asked you this before Dan, but couldn't miles start as well as play bench minutes with DeMar? Also, if (fingers crossed) Lowry is healthy when playoffs roll around, he will likely be playing 40+ mins a game, so how would that impact those bench units? A key point I'm looking for is if CJ in the starting line up will help promote ball movement, as it gives DD/KL a solid kick out option which Norm, though capable of hitting open shots may not be able to do at the same rate as CJ.

I despise evaluating stuff in the teeny tiny flawed sample that is pre-season basketball. Well, not evaluating stuff, but making important decisions based on it. Competition is messed up, guys are trying stuff they wouldn't use in-season, rotations aren't real. And that's how you end up starting Luis Scola for an entire freaking season.

The DeRozan bench unit plays the end of the 1st Q and end of the 3rd Q, typically (and with DD and KL comfortable with that pattern I doubt we see it change). So Miles would have to play the entire 1st Q and entire 3rd Q beside DeMar if you want him in the starting lineup and DeMar's bench lineup. Leaving Powell to play the entire 2nd and 4th, as Miles hasn't broken 24 MPG since 14-15, and that was an outlier, the only other time in his career he did so was 10-11. He's a consummate bench player, short minutes type guy.

So that leaves Miles playing on heavy legs when he's supposed to be helping the DD bench unit, and Powell playing on heavy legs to close each half. Never mind that even then you are assuming that Miles won't be closing halves with the starters, meaning he's not really getting starters minutes, he's getting Luis Scola starters minutes, and I would have thought we learned out lesson on that one.

Now, the counter is that Miles can sub out early in the 1st and 3rd Q, and come back in with the bench. Which is a fantastic idea that many have suggested here over the past few years and has literally never once been implemented by Casey. It's a pipedream. Casey likes to let lineups ride for the first 7-8 minutes of each half (heck even for the first 6-7 minutes of the 2nd and 4th as well) before making substitutions unless he's forced to by foul trouble.

Frankly though, even then, you are getting into the backflips to make a bad idea work, when there is such an easy solution right there. Even with Lowry playing 40 MPG, that leaves 4 minutes in each half where the DeRozan bench needs to provide good minutes. And in-season, Lowry should be down at 37 or so, but the difference there is probably just the extra break Lowry usually takes right before the end of the 1st half. We're going to need those DeRozan bench minutes either way.

As for the idea that Miles would improve ball movement from the stars... In that first pre-season game, Miles was assisted on three of his field goals. Two were assists from JV. So the two stars combined to assist on one Miles field goal in about 20 minutes played together. I don't think any extra ball movement in that first game had anything to do with Miles.

[DanH]

I don't think we would have to bench CJ when the playoffs comes around. Also same thing could be said about JV come playoff time. You don't have a problem with him starting.

Like I said the reason why I'm ok with either one is cause Miles is more than just a spot up shooter. Unlike Carroll, Ross and PJ Tucker if you close out hard on him he can put the ball on the floor and make a play. With his shot being off he put the ball on the floor and took it right at DJ. He was also able to play in PnR where he got Ibaka and open midrange jumper that he made. When was the last time a starting 3 on our team scored in double digits while having a bad shooting night? CJ can make teams pay for trapping Deebo/Klow. Either by hitting the open 3 or putting it on the floor. Norm does the same but, is a better driver. CJ is the better shooter though.

I don't get how Powell being the first player off the bench is doing "backflips"? Isn't that what 6 man do? Be the first player off your bench. Wright was never going to play more than 20 mins a game anyways. With guys like Norm/CJ getting the majority of the minutes left for perimeter minutes. Deebo handling a lot of PG duties

Also Casey said that Deebo would be playing more of PG this year anyways.

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Miles' ability to put the ball on the floor and make a play is basically identical to Carroll's. I'd really rather not see him dribble much more than he has to.

Actually, that's generous. Carroll generates more shots at the rim than Miles, more shots in the paint than Miles, shoots a better percentage at the rim than Miles, shoots a better percentage in the paint than Miles, draws more free throws than Miles, and Carroll had a higher assist rate than Miles last year in spite of playing on the freaking Raptors.

Miles is a better shooter. That's the whole point of signing him, and I sure hope we use him as such.

Come on, you and I both know Casey did not mean that DeRozan would actually be playing PG, just that he'd be looking for him to handle the ball and make plays. He'll never be out there with Powell and Miles.

If Wright is out there for 20 MPG, and the Lowry bench is out there for about 10 MPG, and the DeRozan bench is out there for about 10 MPG... Why would Wright not be able to play in the DeRozan bench? And if he's not playing there, where is he finding his other 10 minutes?