Everything DeMarre Carroll

[DanH]

My comment stems from this part of what you said.



No it's not that black or white. A recommendation from the head trainer that a player would benefit from sitting doesn't necessarily mean that the player has to sit. Teams play players in those situations all the time. It's hard to say anything definitively without more information on exactly what was wrong with Carroll at the time and the details of the recommendation. Damning the whole organization like you did because of a few comments is a pretty big stretch.

I'd love to see any sort of proof that teams play players through injuries when their medical staff advised them not to all the time. Unless you just made that up.

[JWash]

I'd love to see any sort of proof that teams play players through injuries when their medical staff advised them not to all the time. Unless you just made that up.

Wait a sec you just suggested that the Raptors did that, no? So you think that's one of the few times it's been done in NBA history?

Think the burden of proof is on your end.

[KeonClark]

Why are we still arguing about Carroll? He's getting the surgery he needs, the team is rolling. Time to move on.

[DanH]

Wait a sec you just suggested that the Raptors did that, no? So you think that's one of the few times it's been done in NBA history?

Think the burden of proof is on your end.

I didn't assert it was rare, I asserted it was stupid and unacceptable. You argued that it was not unacceptable or stupid based on what was said and that we needed more information because this sort of thing happens all the time. My claim is not based on what happened before, or historical precedent. How am I to supply proof of something being stupid? Here's some proof - Carroll is now out for many weeks after surgery after playing through an injury the training staff wanted to hold him out for, in his own words. You counter was that this happens all the time.

If you want to assert that something happens commonly, how can I possibly prove that it does not? I can say I couldn't find an example. What value does that carry? I am inclined not to find an example. You however are the one who made the assertion that there is historical precedent for this sort of thing. I imagine since it happens all the time a quick google search should turn up a dozen results that will be easy for you to present.

[slaw]

I'd love to see any sort of proof that teams play players through injuries when their medical staff advised them not to all the time. Unless you just made that up.

I don't want to be too pedantic but I think it's important in this case. All we have is Carroll saying that Alex didn't want him to play and was worried about him injuring himself further. That's what we know. But, again, we don't know what the medical opinion/advice of the actual doctors who saw him was nor do we know what discussions were had between management, the training staff, the doctors and Carroll. Alex McKechnie may have relented at some point, he may have been the one outlier saying Carroll shouldn't play or he may by nature be a cautious guy and his recommendations are treated accordingly.

We don't know and it's just not as simple as people are making it out to be.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't want to be too pedantic but I think it's important in this case. All we have is Carroll saying that Alex didn't want him to play and was worried about him injuring himself further. That's what we know. But, again, we don't know what the medical opinion/advice of the actual doctors who saw him was nor do we know what discussions were had between management, the training staff, the doctors and Carroll. Alex McKechnie may have relented at some point, he may have been the one outlier saying Carroll shouldn't play or he may by nature be a cautious guy and his recommendations are treated accordingly.

We don't know and it's just not as simple as people are making it out to be.

Even if Carroll was medically cleared to play, if McKechnie stepped in and recommended that he be held out a few games to recuperate and/or as a precaution, it seems ridiculous that the coaching staff would overrule him.

Having said that, the bigger question that I have is, what was Carroll's opinion was at the time? Typically, players say they're ok and argue to play. With medical clearance and Carroll pushing to get back on the court, then it's tougher to side against the coaching staff. If Carroll agreed with the recommendation of the head trainer, or stayed out of it by saying something like "I'll do whatever you think is best", then it's absolutely on Casey and the coaching staff.

[JWash]

I don't want to be too pedantic but I think it's important in this case. All we have is Carroll saying that Alex didn't want him to play and was worried about him injuring himself further. That's what we know. But, again, we don't know what the medical opinion/advice of the actual doctors who saw him was nor do we know what discussions were had between management, the training staff, the doctors and Carroll. Alex McKechnie may have relented at some point, he may have been the one outlier saying Carroll shouldn't play or he may by nature be a cautious guy and his recommendations are treated accordingly.

We don't know and it's just not as simple as people are making it out to be.

Yeah this was my point. Condemning the organization without having full information was my issue.

[JWash]

Even if Carroll was medically cleared to play, if McKechnie stepped in and recommended that he be held out a few games to recuperate and/or as a precaution, it seems ridiculous that the coaching staff would overrule him.

Having said that, the bigger question that I have is, what was Carroll's opinion was at the time? Typically, players say they're ok and argue to play. With medical clearance and Carroll pushing to get back on the court, then it's tougher to side against the coaching staff. If Carroll agreed with the recommendation of the head trainer, or stayed out of it by saying something like "I'll do whatever you think is best", then it's absolutely on Casey and the coaching staff.

How do you know that the coaching staff autonomously made that decision?

What if Carroll said "Hey coach I know it's not looking great but I really want to get out there". We don't know for sure, so blaming the coaching staff or management when we have no idea what's actually going on behind the scenes seems odd to me.

It's actually more likely that that's what happened. Not Casey/Masai/Assistants saying "Sorry DeMarre we spent $60M on you, suck it up and get out there" but DeMarre likely asking if he could still play anyway. And if the recommendation from McKechnie was that he probably shouldn't play but he can physically play, then it wouldn't be surprising that DeMarre (or any NBA player for that matter) would want to do that.

[Mess]

Even if Carroll was medically cleared to play, if McKechnie stepped in and recommended that he be held out a few games to recuperate and/or as a precaution, it seems ridiculous that the coaching staff would overrule him.

Having said that, the bigger question that I have is, what was Carroll's opinion was at the time? Typically, players say they're ok and argue to play. With medical clearance and Carroll pushing to get back on the court, then it's tougher to side against the coaching staff. If Carroll agreed with the recommendation of the head trainer, or stayed out of it by saying something like "I'll do whatever you think is best", then it's absolutely on Casey and the coaching staff.

I don't think there's any way, in the NBA, a coach could convince a player to play when both the trainer and player are against it. I don't think there's any chance a coach would even try to, especially in December.

You usually hear that it comes down to what the player says and from what I've heard about Carroll, given the choice he'll play through it.

[slaw]

Even if Carroll was medically cleared to play, if McKechnie stepped in and recommended that he be held out a few games to recuperate and/or as a precaution, it seems ridiculous that the coaching staff would overrule him.

Having said that, the bigger question that I have is, what was Carroll's opinion was at the time? Typically, players say they're ok and argue to play. With medical clearance and Carroll pushing to get back on the court, then it's tougher to side against the coaching staff. If Carroll agreed with the recommendation of the head trainer, or stayed out of it by saying something like "I'll do whatever you think is best", then it's absolutely on Casey and the coaching staff.

But, once again, the coaching staff doesn't run the organization. The coaching staff doesn't overrule the training or medical staff and it certainly doesn't overrule management. Why would anyone even think this was the case? For it to be correct, you would have to believe in a possible scenario where the medical staff, the player and Masai Ujiri said, "Carroll isn't playing," and Dwane Casey looked at Masai and said, "fuck you, Ujiri, yes he is. I decide not you." How likely is that in your mind?

Now, it's absolutely possible that members of the management team and coaching staff pushed Carroll to play cause that happens all the time in every organization. And it's also possible that the doctors told management what it wanted to hear (i.e. Carroll is fine) when he wasn't cause they like hanging out with pro athletes and get to put it on their resumes. And it's also certainly possible that Carroll pushed to play cause he wanted to justify his big contract. I just don't see any possibility that Dwane Casey overruled management and the medical staff cause that's just so bloody ridiculous it beggars belief.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

How do you know that the coaching staff autonomously made that decision?

What if Carroll said "Hey coach I know it's not looking great but I really want to get out there". We don't know for sure, so blaming the coaching staff or management when we have no idea what's actually going on behind the scenes seems odd to me.

It's actually more likely that that's what happened. Not Casey/Masai/Assistants saying "Sorry DeMarre we spent $60M on you, suck it up and get out there" but DeMarre likely asking if he could still play anyway. And if the recommendation from McKechnie was that he probably shouldn't play but he can physically play, then it wouldn't be surprising that DeMarre (or any NBA player for that matter) would want to do that.

Seems like you replied before reading the second paragraph, because your response basically summarized it.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't think there's any way, in the NBA, a coach could convince a player to play when both the trainer and player are against it. I don't think there's any chance a coach would even try to, especially in December.

You usually hear that it comes down to what the player says and from what I've heard about Carroll, given the choice he'll play through it.

Agreed. That's what makes the story so odd. It sounds terrible for the organization and/or coaching staff, but what was Carroll actually saying through all of this?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But, once again, the coaching staff doesn't run the organization. The coaching staff doesn't overrule the training or medical staff and it certainly doesn't overrule management. Why would anyone even think this was the case? For it to be correct, you would have to believe in a possible scenario where the medical staff, the player and Masai Ujiri said, "Carroll isn't playing," and Dwane Casey looked at Masai and said, "fuck you, Ujiri, yes he is. I decide not you." How likely is that in your mind?

Now, it's absolutely possible that members of the management team and coaching staff pushed Carroll to play cause that happens all the time in every organization. And it's also possible that the doctors told management what it wanted to hear (i.e. Carroll is fine) when he wasn't cause they like hanging out with pro athletes and get to put it on their resumes. And it's also certainly possible that Carroll pushed to play cause he wanted to justify his big contract. I just don't see any possibility that Dwane Casey overruled management and the medical staff cause that's just so bloody ridiculous it beggars belief.

I doubt Casey overruled the medical staff, but if the training staff simply offered a recommendation, I could see the coaching staff ignoring it (especially if the player wanted to play or left it to the coach).

[Mess]

Agreed. That's what makes the story so odd. It sounds terrible for the organization and/or coaching staff, but what was Carroll actually saying through all of this?

A player fighting through a nagging injury that ends up missing more time is not that odd. Happens all the time.

[DanH]

A player fighting through a nagging injury that ends up missing more time is not that odd. Happens all the time.

True. Rarely though do you hear quotes from a player about how the training staff wanted to hold them out but was overruled by either the player, coach or management.