Everything VanVleet

[golden]

He said "we need a new identity" not system
It's important to be accurate or some will take it as we need a new Coach.
*cough* Golden

Lol. I have never once said we need a new coach or Fire Nurse. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

But Fred did say the “chaos” approach (aka the unstructured / improv jazz / offensive system) needed to change.

99.99% of un-biased listeners would take that to mean the offensive system has to change.

[G____Deane]

He did say "one of the", but anyway, Lakers and Bucks?

Lakers haven't been good for majority of the 2010s and Bucks got better mid to late 2010s.

Raptors have the 2nd best record since 2013 and won a championship to boot whether fortuitous or not.

Heat, Cavs, Warriors and Raptors probably round out the top 4, in no particular order.

Warriors have just been better, period, enough said.
Lakers won it all in 2009, 2010 and 2020. Automatically and fully wipes out anything we've done.....if the Brow and lebron could ever stay healthy, they'd have another. And I hate the lakers.
Bucks have won 50-60 games for 5 years running....ooops one year 46 wins, won the conference 3X and a chip. You don't think that's better than the Raps?

People are so swayed by our one chip, won on the back of a one year rental. Other than that, we've been an OK/good franchise with no chance to win it all.

[G____Deane]

Lol. I have never once said we need a new coach or Fire Nurse. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

But Fred did say the “chaos” approach (aka the unstructured / improv jazz / offensive system) needed to change.

99.99% of un-biased listeners would take that to mean the offensive system has to change.

I must be drunk.
So all of the constant and I mean constant criticism of Nurse from you (even constantly working it into posts that were nothing about Nurse) meant you didn't want him gone?

[A.I]

Warriors have just been better, period, enough said.
Lakers won it all in 2009, 2010 and 2020. Automatically and fully wipes out anything we've done.....if the Brow and lebron could ever stay healthy, they'd have another. And I hate the lakers.
Bucks have won 50-60 games for 5 years running....ooops one year 46 wins, won the conference 3X and a chip. You don't think that's better than the Raps?

People are so swayed by our one chip, won on the back of a one year rental. Other than that, we've been an OK/good franchise with no chance to win it all.

2009 and 2010 aren't in the past 10 years lol. Lakers have been a lottery team for majority of the 2010s. Lebron and AD joining saved them in 2019. That was 4 years ago.

"Without" the fortuitous chip, "if" Lebron and AD stayed healthy. Doesn't work that way.

5 years for the Bucks sure. Thats half a decade. Raptors have won 48+ games every year since 2014 except this season and the Tampa year. Thats 8 out of 10 years. Don't see how you can even argue the Bucks or Lakers have been better.

People are swayed by the Raptors' one chip but you seem to be swayed by the Bucks' one chip. Both won one, Raptors just have had more winning seasons.

Again, Raptors has had the highest winning percentage behind the Warriors in the past decade, along with winning a chip in the end.

[G____Deane]

Fair enough but that's why I said "in the last decade or so"
OK so recency bias but the Bucks have been far superior to the Raps for a long time, a more recent chip and still have one of the best players in the league. It's not even close.

[A.I]

Fair enough but that's why I said "in the last decade or so"
OK so recency bias but the Bucks have been far superior to the Raps for a long time, a more recent chip and still have one of the best players in the league. It's not even close.

Good for them, that just means they'll be better in the next 5 years and then you can make it a decade.

[DanH]

If he breaks his leg in an offseason accident and will miss next season.

Fred's ego is not gonna let him take the option.

LOL ego has nothing to do with it. He's guaranteed way more money than that, why would he take the option?

[DanH]

If Fred takes his player option when is the earliest we could trade him?

Immediately. But he won't.

[DanH]

Lol. I have never once said we need a new coach or Fire Nurse. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

But Fred did say the “chaos” approach (aka the unstructured / improv jazz / offensive system) needed to change.

99.99% of un-biased listeners would take that to mean the offensive system has to change.

My read: Fred has long voiced his, let's say, impatience with Scottie stepping up into a bigger offensive role.

Everyone seems to want to believe that Fred wants the ball and Scottie will never be able to step up with him there. But I really, honestly see it quite the opposite. Scottie is shy still, and until he sheds that he'll always defer. Fred wants the deferring to stop. One way for that to happen? More structure and called plays where Scottie is the guy the play is designed to make creation decisions.

This "chaos" comment falls very much in line with that thinking. Stop letting Scottie think he can just hand the ball back. Force him into a bigger role. Then he can be "as good as he wants to be."

I don't know that the system is necessarily the same as the approach. The system is essentially "attack mismatches, use big lineup to attack smaller defenders in the post, generally limit higher risk/higher reward passes to cut down on turnovers." We can still do that with more structure around who initiates and what sort of actions we use to get guys into those advantageous positions.

[Kagemusha]

My read: Fred has long voiced his, let's say, impatience with Scottie stepping up into a bigger offensive role.

Everyone seems to want to believe that Fred wants the ball and Scottie will never be able to step up with him there. But I really, honestly see it quite the opposite. Scottie is shy still, and until he sheds that he'll always defer. Fred wants the deferring to stop. One way for that to happen? More structure and called plays where Scottie is the guy the play is designed to make creation decisions.

This "chaos" comment falls very much in line with that thinking. Stop letting Scottie think he can just hand the ball back. Force him into a bigger role. Then he can be "as good as he wants to be."

I don't know that the system is necessarily the same as the approach. The system is essentially "attack mismatches, use big lineup to attack smaller defenders in the post, generally limit higher risk/higher reward passes to cut down on turnovers." We can still do that with more structure around who initiates and what sort of actions we use to get guys into those advantageous positions.

Scottie is shy? Where did you get that narrative now?
Check back his attitude from highschool to college to his rookie season. He is far from being shy, bro. Something happened that made him defer to Fred.
I read that as a sign of desperation, like here's the ball do what you want with , it will end up in your hands anyway with this structure-less system of the coach.
Remember Nurse's comments about Barnes saying that he is a PG? If you were Scottie, how would you react to that?
Fred and Nick's chaos system are the main problem here.
This hits home being from the west coast, as this was also the big problem with Bodreau's time with the Canucks. Players are now coming out dissing his no-structure system.
Expect the Raptors players to say the same once this team gets a new coach.

[golden]

My read: Fred has long voiced his, let's say, impatience with Scottie stepping up into a bigger offensive role.

Everyone seems to want to believe that Fred wants the ball and Scottie will never be able to step up with him there. But I really, honestly see it quite the opposite. Scottie is shy still, and until he sheds that he'll always defer. Fred wants the deferring to stop. One way for that to happen? More structure and called plays where Scottie is the guy the play is designed to make creation decisions.

This "chaos" comment falls very much in line with that thinking. Stop letting Scottie think he can just hand the ball back. Force him into a bigger role. Then he can be "as good as he wants to be."

I don't know that the system is necessarily the same as the approach. The system is essentially "attack mismatches, use big lineup to attack smaller defenders in the post, generally limit higher risk/higher reward passes to cut down on turnovers." We can still do that with more structure around who initiates and what sort of actions we use to get guys into those advantageous positions.

Seems like a pretty long way around interpretation of a straightforward quote.

Fred is turnover averse, by nature. Structure and less chaos would help communication and limit turnovers and self-inflicted mistakes. Also, more structure would minimize (or eliminate) guys like Precious and Boucher dribbling and making dumb decisions, and also put the ball in Fred's hands more often. That's how I'm reading it.

[DanH]

Seems like a pretty long way around interpretation of a straightforward quote.

Fred is turnover averse, by nature. Structure and less chaos would help communication and limit turnovers and self-inflicted mistakes. Also, more structure would minimize (or eliminate) guys like Precious and Boucher dribbling and making dumb decisions, and also put the ball in Fred's hands more often. That's how I'm reading it.

Nah, Fred has had an undertone of not liking the shots he's forced to take in this offence to bail everyone out for a while now. Can't blame him considering how hung up so much of this board is on his efficiency while ignoring that context.

[DanH]

Scottie is shy? Where did you get that narrative now?
Check back his attitude from highschool to college to his rookie season. He is far from being shy, bro. Something happened that made him defer to Fred.
I read that as a sign of desperation, like here's the ball do what you want with , it will end up in your hands anyway with this structure-less system of the coach.
Remember Nurse's comments about Barnes saying that he is a PG? If you were Scottie, how would you react to that?
Fred and Nick's chaos system are the main problem here.
This hits home being from the west coast, as this was also the big problem with Bodreau's time with the Canucks. Players are now coming out dissing his no-structure system.
Expect the Raptors players to say the same once this team gets a new coach.

And yet, as I've pointed out over and over and over again, Scottie still defers when he is in bench units with no other creator and no Fred. It's not the guys around him, it's him. And as soon as he figures out that he should be dominating the game rather than making the first OK pass available, the entire team construct starts to make sense.

[Kagemusha]

And yet, as I've pointed out over and over and over again, Scottie still defers when he is in bench units with no other creator and no Fred. It's not the guys around him, it's him. And as soon as he figures out that he should be dominating the game rather than making the first OK pass available, the entire team construct starts to make sense.

That's not deference, per se.
He is constantly looking for the best available shot.

[DanH]

That's not deference, per se.
He is constantly looking for the best available shot.

Nah, this doesn't explain it at all. He has bench units to himself and will hand the ball to Gary and scram to the corner.