Everything VanVleet

[Yuri Gagarin]

Cringe is blaming the rest of the team for poor freds bad “shot spectrum”

[Kagemusha]

Cringe is blaming the rest of the team for poor freds bad “shot spectrum”

That's not how u treat a top50 player.

[TrueTorontoFan]

lol at all these crybaby anti-fred posts and demanding dan explain every single stat to them.

and even when they are explained, they're just dismissed with dumb ass responses "but fred is still a shithead!"

I wasn't asking for dan to explain a stat I was asking if he had actually looked at the possessions themselves or was just making assumptions

[Yuri Gagarin]

lol at all these crybaby anti-fred posts and demanding dan explain every single stat to them.

and even when they are explained, they're just dismissed with dumb ass responses "but fred is still a shithead!"

All you do is cry about other people posts. Glad your happy watching other teams in the first round though

[Kagemusha]

I wasn't asking for dan to explain a stat I was asking if he had actually looked at the possessions themselves or was just making assumptions

Stop questioning a top50 player bro.

[Primer]

I wasn't asking for dan to explain a stat I was asking if he had actually looked at the possessions themselves or was just making assumptions

Yes, watching the games provides a different story than random data points. The actually watching the games part is necessary context.

Those of us ready to move on from Fred have seen from watching games his last second bailout shots are typically the result of him dribbling too long looking for his own shot, then not setting up a play to start the offense. So he may get the ball back last second and has to heave it, but that never would have happened if he had set someone up to start the offensive set, you know, like a point guard typically does.

I think the best way to shut us up who are down on Fred would be to provide some video evidence of Fred being an amazing point guard and the last second heave is everyone else's fault. Because that's not what I'm seeing watching the games.

[BrydenB]

He's an 86th percentile defender per EPM. Would need to decline a LOT before he would need to be an elite offensive player to break even.

I’m not sure what that stat entails, but I would be inclined to agree that Fred is still a good team defender. Especially digging in from help. My main concern is his point of attack defence. He gets torched by even average first steps now.

[G____Deane]

I’m not sure what that stat entails, but I would be inclined to agree that Fred is still a good team defender. Especially digging in from help. My main concern is his point of attack defence. He gets torched by even average first steps now.

And that's only going to get worse in the next four(?) years of a new contract and we already know they couldn't move him at the trade deadline for value

[G____Deane]

Article on SN
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article...ting-campaign/

1. What do the Raptors do with Fred VanVleet?


As far as contract years go, this wasn’t ideal. Fred VanVleet shot a career-worst 34 percent from deep, and while it’s too simplistic to pin narrow losses solely on just him, VanVleet's shotmaking was missing in important moments.

There’s the Hawks game lost in overtime where VanVleet shot 4-for-18. There is a loss to Boston by one possession where VanVleet was 3-of-14. In a loss to Philadelphia, he shot 3-for-15 including whiffing on two wide-open threes in overtime. There was another 3-for-15 as the Raptors collapsed in the fourth against the Pacers. VanVleet went 3-for-9 in an embarrassing meltdown to the Lakers, after shooting just 4-for-12 in a narrow loss to the Clippers two nights prior.

Down the stretch, there was the 7-for-22 performance in a must-win game against the Pacers at home, a 5-for-17 showing in Philadelphia, and a combined 5-for-25 in the two-game spanking in Boston which effectively sealed their fate in the play-in, where VanVleet started strong but shot 1-for-6 in the fourth quarter as Toronto collapsed for the final time in fitting fashion.

To be fair, there were also stretches of positive play. VanVleet posted career highs in two-point percentages and assists, with the latter bumping to 8.6 dimes with Jakob Poeltl’s introduction to the starting lineup.

Having a genuine pick-and-roll partner to pair with helped VanVleet’s game more than anyone else in the group, and it gave the Raptors a secondary option to play through on offence besides clearing out for Pascal Siakam. It also eliminated the games where VanVleet was relegated to catching and shooting, which on paper seemed like a strength for him, but in actuality, it led to some alarmingly empty stat lines (2-for-9, 0-for-11, 1-for-8, 1-for-9).

VanVleet’s impact metrics also remained strong despite the missed shots, and the Raptors were plus-195 with VanVleet on the floor to lead all players. That outlines the team’s need for VanVleet’s position – a lead playmaking guard who can run pick-and-roll, collapse the paint for kick-outs, limit turnovers, and launch threes at a high volume.

But this also meant that the Raptors were living and dying with VanVleet’s success in this role, and more often than not he came up short.

Ideally, the Raptors would upgrade, but it’s not even easy to find a replacement. There are no in-house solutions if VanVleet were to move on in free agency, as he hasn’t had a viable backup in two seasons, nor would it seem wise to lean further into the “Vision 6-9” strategy of playing without guards.

A sign-and-trade is possible, but if any other market is looking to bring in VanVleet, it would be to upgrade their own shortcomings at point guard, therefore the Raptors would only be offered discards in return. That’s why re-signing VanVleet has always been the most likely outcome, although agreeing to the right number would be difficult.

VanVleet stated on the record in December that he did not decline a four-year extension worth $114 million, as it was agreed from both sides to circle back after the season, but there is a real danger in going much beyond that figure. It might be a fair figure considering that the Raptors have no other options, but the real question is whether any other team values him at that figure because otherwise it becomes a bad contract.

If there’s any possibility of keeping the term shorter to mitigate risk, it would be for the best. The alternative to retaining the asset would be to just let him walk, but that is the main reason why the Raptors are in this predicament of being short on talent in the first place.

[DanH]

Wow 86th percentile! Others gms must not look at epm or shot spectrum and how fred gets stuck with the ball (everyone elses fault) when it was at the deadline cuz fred sounds off the charts amazing. You see stuff 29 gms didnt see when they offered shit all for fred

dan you’re digging so deep for excuses. I told you a year ago he most likely peaked and will begin decline. and hes a shithead in the locker room

I've long been one to say that Fred is undervalued league wide, which has been borne out every time he has hit free agency, which is why I never expected him to fetch enough in trade and am not overly worried about his market price this summer. This is nothing new.

[DanH]

so that isn't really digging into the possessions

that is just looking at the numbers and making a correlation. If you are outlining that 25% of his shots are coming with the clock winding down again I ask what is happening during those 25% of possessions in terms of sets and ball movement.

You want to dive deep into hundreds of video clips, be my guest. You asking me to is a little unreasonable. I provided my evidence, why not provide your own if you think it is there to show mine is invalid?

[DanH]

Yes, watching the games provides a different story than random data points. The actually watching the games part is necessary context.

Those of us ready to move on from Fred have seen from watching games his last second bailout shots are typically the result of him dribbling too long looking for his own shot, then not setting up a play to start the offense. So he may get the ball back last second and has to heave it, but that never would have happened if he had set someone up to start the offensive set, you know, like a point guard typically does.

I think the best way to shut us up who are down on Fred would be to provide some video evidence of Fred being an amazing point guard and the last second heave is everyone else's fault. Because that's not what I'm seeing watching the games.

Ah, and those of us who disagree with you also watched the games. Funny how we came to different conclusions.

I always appreciate those who throw the implication around that anyone who disagrees with them didn't watch the games. The sign of the highest intelligence among online sports discussion since the dawn of time.

[DanH]

I’m not sure what that stat entails, but I would be inclined to agree that Fred is still a good team defender. Especially digging in from help. My main concern is his point of attack defence. He gets torched by even average first steps now.

Yes, the stat captures the overall impact on a defence - so both his quality help defence and his deteriorating POA defence. It's all in there.

[DanH]

Overall a fair article, but I thought this part was kind of hilarious:

Article on SN
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article...ting-campaign/

VanVleet’s impact metrics also remained strong despite the missed shots, and the Raptors were plus-195 with VanVleet on the floor to lead all players. That outlines the team’s need for VanVleet’s position – a lead playmaking guard who can run pick-and-roll, collapse the paint for kick-outs, limit turnovers, and launch threes at a high volume.

But this also meant that the Raptors were living and dying with VanVleet’s success in this role, and more often than not he came up short.

Actually, the plus-195 meant that more often than not, he was helping them succeed rather than coming up short, regardless of his own shotmaking.

Still, I definitely look forward to his shooting off the catch returning to form. That plus-195 can be a lot higher.

[Primer]

Ah, and those of us who disagree with you also watched the games. Funny how we came to different conclusions.

I always appreciate those who throw the implication around that anyone who disagrees with them didn't watch the games. The sign of the highest intelligence among online sports discussion since the dawn of time.

Just saying you provide lots of data out of context but never any video evidence. These narratives about Fred are widespread, everywhere Raptors fans talk there is a very large contingent saying the same things we are. Be in any live game thread anywhere and you'll see it all called out in real time.

Then of course you choose to ignore the hard shooting data which says Fred is a bad shooter. The objective shooting data says he's bad. Bad FG, bad 3pt, bad eFG. You try to spin it as he's getting bad shots, and it's not his fault, and provide zero evidence to back it up, because it would take video evidence to do so.

I'm not saying you don't watch the games, I just think your arguments would fall apart if you had to provide video evidence.