Perhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.
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"They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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SuperRaptor wrote: View PostI think that defensively the two most crucial positions that need to be solid for a team are PG and C. The point of attack, not allowing penetration and forcing the help defense to react, and then protecting the basket. A team like Orlando, everyone thought Hedo Turkoglu was a good defender, but it turns out he was only a good defender because Dwight Howard was the last line of defense, and he is the best defensive player in the league. So if we can address those two issues the raptors can have their defense improved.
As for changing the identity or atmosphere of the team, I think trading Calderon who had a good season statistically and may have decent trade value atm would be better, we have bayless to replace him who is definately a better defender. If we can address the C position and fill that hole with a solid, imposing, shot blocking big, if we have sorted out our PG problem we can definately be a better defensive team and still keep Bargnani.
Now if trading Bargnani means that we can address some of these issues than im all for it, but if these issues can be addressed through free agency which we have tons of cap room for, and this season happens to be a good offseason for C's (Nene, Chandler, Gasol all free agents) then their is no need to trade him.
If however we cannot get a solid C, and I dont mean draft one, Im not in the camp of waiting 2-3 years to make the playoffs, a team needs a healthy balance between veterans and young guns, I want an experienced veteran C if that cant be obtained through free agency, then trading Bargnani should be our only option. If that isnt the case however I make the argument that we keep him, use our financial flexibility to address our issues, and keep a very dynamic scorer who I think is signed to a reasonable contract.
As for Turkoglu, no one thought he was a good defensive player in Orlando, and the thing is he wasn't bad in Toronto. He wasn't great by any means, but He certainly wasn't one of the worst offenders defensively. Not by a long shot. But I never saw Turkoglu's defense much different from Orlando to Toronto to Phoenix. I don't know why anyone else did, quite frankly.
Now the issue of the PG being one of the most important positions defensively, history says differently. Neither Derek Fisher or Tony Parker or Jason Williams or BJ Armstrong or John Paxson or Isiah Thomas or Magic Johnson were strong defensive players, yet they all have Championship rings as starting PGs. What each player had behind him, though, was a very strong team defense. In today's NBA, you're not going to stop penetration one on one. It's going to happen even if you've got Rajon Rondo as your PG. Calderon was not nearly as bad defensively as some seemed to think. He wasn't good by any means, but this year we saw a huge improvement in his defense so much so that I never though it was much of a concern.
The thing about Calderon is that he was actually one of the few players on the team that had a consistent positive effect while he was on the court. Far more than Bargnani did and the numbers easily back me up on this. He's not your ideal PG because he's not great at getting to the basket, but I really don't understand the desperate need to replace him immediately. If the Raptors get someone like Kyrie Irving, then fine, but if they don't then there won't be any harm in having him start again next year. He's one of the few Raptors I can see starting on a contender.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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ezz_bee wrote: View PostPerhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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ezz_bee wrote: View PostPerhaps, I'm giving Barg's too much credit but I do think that some of his "regression" is due to his role as alpha, which he was ill suited and ill prepared for. I also am not sure how useful he is as a starter, but there may ways to utilize him with smaller numbers that gives better returns. I do think that in certain situations you could change games by playing him at the 3 spot. I don't think he could play full time there OR be a starter there only that in certain situations it could result in a net gain for the team, for a few key possessions/half a quarter or so and possibly win . The rest of the time play him as your backup center or as back power forward along side your starting center. If we want to go DEEP into the playoffs we need a good team NOT just good starters. We have to build a good bench along w/ a good starting unit. If barg's value is low because every expects him to be on the trading block then bring him back for another year with a different role.
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I think if the Clips end up with a top five pick, and sign-and-trade DeAndre Jordan, I would take their pick and Jordan for Andrea Bargnani. Likewise, I would take JaVale McGee and a top pick for AB, but those are my only real (and potentially legitimate) targets.
Marc Gasol is nothing. Tyson Chandler is old and injury-proned. Emeka Okafor is a goliath contract for Ed Davis-esque numbers, and Sam Dalembert is a joke.It's about money
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how about we sign a centre (Nene)
draft a pg or wing (kyrie irving/derrick williams)
then depending on who we draft, we trade bargs + calderon for an all-star caliber wing or pg
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ezz_bee wrote: View PostI was hard on the "trade Bargnani" train and I think it is clear that he has demonstrated this season that he is not a number 1 guy on any team or a "franchise" player. However, he doesn't get paid like a franchise player, he gets paid like a 2-3 guy if not a 4-6 on a very good team. Whether you like it or not he was the focal point of our offense this year and was treated by opposing teams at our number one threat. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but one could argue that Barg's is not the problem. The fact that we have no all-stars, no franchise players, hardly any veteran presence (barbs, and reggie?) explains his drop in rebounding/shot blocking ect. Barg's was in over his head and being asked to do a job he wasn't qualified for, couldn't do, and didn't get paid for it. Barg's as the face of the franchise? You can find the answer to that question at failblog.com. But does that mean he has to go? Getting rid of Bargnani doesn't magically give us a franchise player, or an allstar or even veteran presence, unless some of those pieces are involved in that trade. Getting rid of Bargnani is not addition by subtraction. Although there are some problems with the efficiency of his production getting better players on this team would make a big difference, for the team as a whole not just Barg's. Let me be clear, I am NOT advocating that we build around bargnani. In fact it is the opposite, we need BETTER players or our younger players to continue to develop. Bargnani as a 3rd option could do just as well here as elsewhere. I don't buy the he "won't" be willing to come of the bench or that it would hurt his trade value. If we get good value for him then sure, pull the trigger, but his contract is very reasonable and as the 3rd or 4th option he could still be very effective. I know we are "mostly" and yes I mean that the majority of RR posters are on the trade bargs train. But it has to be for something BETTER. I don't think draft picks will do it. If I am the GM it's not just about getting the right players, but it's about getting the right players with the right contracts. Barg's might not be the right player but he is still better than a wrong player on a wrong contract OR even the right player at the wrong contract. Barg's gets paid to play, he'll play at the 3 position or at c or coming off the bench, because it is clear that "favouritism" from the front office/coaching staff has run out. We are still in rebuild mode and still have an excellent payroll (if you don't count peja as still being a raptor). Keeping good contracts keeps us flexible. Making a trade just to trade could leave us with a contract that limits us for going after the "final" piece to take us DEEP into the playoffs 2-4 years from now. We don't HAVE to trade Bargnani, we CAN and we SHOULD but only if get a player AND contract that give BETTER value.
I guess where my change of heart has occurred is the realization that for the type of players needed to be obtained for success with Bargnani it would be much easier to create success with the proceeds he returned. His flaws, in my opinion, appear at this time to be too great to overcome in a timely manner (i.e. 1-2 seasons) given he is going to be 26 at the start of next season. I could be wrong here but barring a trade for Bogut (and he stays healthy) and Josh Smith, I don't see it happening.
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Tim W. wrote: View PostNow the issue of the PG being one of the most important positions defensively, history says differently. Neither Derek Fisher or Tony Parker or Jason Williams or BJ Armstrong or John Paxson or Isiah Thomas or Magic Johnson were strong defensive players, yet they all have Championship rings as starting PGs. What each player had behind him, though, was a very strong team defense. In today's NBA, you're not going to stop penetration one on one. It's going to happen even if you've got Rajon Rondo as your PG. Calderon was not nearly as bad defensively as some seemed to think. He wasn't good by any means, but this year we saw a huge improvement in his defense so much so that I never though it was much of a concern.
The thing about Calderon is that he was actually one of the few players on the team that had a consistent positive effect while he was on the court. Far more than Bargnani did and the numbers easily back me up on this. He's not your ideal PG because he's not great at getting to the basket, but I really don't understand the desperate need to replace him immediately. If the Raptors get someone like Kyrie Irving, then fine, but if they don't then there won't be any harm in having him start again next year. He's one of the few Raptors I can see starting on a contender.
We would be far, far better suited to be taking a chance on Bayless than starting Calderon again. But if we have anything resembling a fair training camp, the starting spot is Bayless' to lose, so the point is moot.
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WhatWhat wrote: View PostCalderon was still horrible defensively, but he's tried much harder defensively. And PGs absolutely need to be able to get into the paint.
We would be far, far better suited to be taking a chance on Bayless than starting Calderon again. But if we have anything resembling a fair training camp, the starting spot is Bayless' to lose, so the point is moot.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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j bean wrote: View PostColangelo shouldn't have to justify trading Bargs or anyone else to somebody like Tanenbaum.
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I don't know about this Bargnani saga. I was all over him towards the end of the season, just like everybody else. But maybe give him one more year at the power forward? What has really changed my mind about him is how well he's handling this criticism. Whats the worst that could happen? He's got one of the sweetest strokes in the game!
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Nick wrote: View PostI don't know about this Bargnani saga. I was all over him towards the end of the season, just like everybody else. But maybe give him one more year at the power forward? What has really changed my mind about him is how well he's handling this criticism. Whats the worst that could happen? He's got one of the sweetest strokes in the game!
I think it is fair to AB to be traded where he can enjoy his time. I was looking at CB4 last night ( who was under alot of critisim last year here in Toronto). He had 25 and 12 and was enjoying himself.
I am looking at Marco and Jack right now, in play offs, scoring 10 and 8 point each in the first half and .... enjoying their time.
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