Tim W. wrote:
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footarez wrote: View PostLike few guys wrote among scoring leaders were Corey,Monta,Marcus and so what?In the end of the season wins is what counts not ppg with lousy effectiveness ...I don't care about Bosh.This year he has nothing to do with our team.Bosh is history-get over him.By the way so is Vince and Hedo.I hate it when crowd boos those guys when they play against the raptors...very stupid move.I even think sometimes those boos make Carter want to play better and eventually beat us.Has happened in the overtime game 2 years ago with buzzer-beater 3 and buzzer beater dunk(sad face).I'm not saying you are one of those I meant that in general.You've probably laid your arguments many times about Bargnani but except his scoring I haven't seen anything that can logically convince me that he is lazy underachiever who doesn't care much about wining games for us.If I was a season ticket holder I'd be VERY disgusted to watch him NOT try on the defensive end.If Bargnani played average defense and was more effective on offense the Raptors could have been a lot better this season and the only excuse would have been the injuries.
He' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...
other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.
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Brandon wrote: View PostHe was given more playing time. That's about it. His rookie year (advanced) stats are virtually the same as every year since. The only thing he's learned under Triano is he can do whatever he wants and there are no consequences.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View PostHe' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...
other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.
And really, no argument will convince you that the Raptors should trade Bargnani because you wont look at evidence objectively.
The ONLY argument you've come up with is that he was a top 15 scorer, but since you apparently missed it the dozen or so other times I have disputed the importance of this, I'll repost my last one:
You're putting WAY, WAY, WAY too much emphasis on scoring. Bargnani scored 21 ppg because he was on a crappy team without a lot of other scoring options. You think Bosh couldn't have scored more if he wasn't on Miami? You think Paul Pierce or Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett couldn't have scored more if they were given more shots on a bad team? Or Carlos Boozer or Joe Johnson or Jamaal Crawford or Josh Smith or Chauncey Billups or Al Harrington or Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum or Vince Carter or Aaron Brooks or Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker or Jason Terry or Caron Butler or Shawn Marion or David West or Chris Paul or Carl Landry or Richard Jefferson or more than a dozen other guys in the league who could easily score 20 or more ppg if they were given as many shots as Bargnani took. When good players are on good teams they usually subjugate their scoring for the betterment of the team and do other things. The one dimensional players usually end up either player a smaller role or no role at all.
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You have to give up this "but he was top 15 scoring" argument because it really isn't much of an argument. Corey Maggette has been in the top 15 in scoring several times, but because that's the only thing he does well, he's not going to help your team win, much. Ask Milwaukee. Same goes for Monta Ellis and GOlden State. Or even Marcus Thornton and Sacramento. On New Orleans, for a coach that demanded defense, he languished on the bench. On a bad team where he could take 17 shots a game he was able to score 21 ppg. Sound familiar?
Then he gets traded to Sacramento, another bad team, and he starts scoring again.
Two things to take note here. The first is that Monty Williams is a disciple of Gregg Popovich, which backs up my theory that if Bargnani was traded to the Spurs (which probably wouldn't happen) he'd end up being stapled to the bench because of his defensive "issues".
The second thing is that Marcus Thornton rebounded at a slightly higher rate than Bargnani did this year. Keep in mind that Thornton is 6'4.
Care to respond to any of that?Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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Tim W. wrote: View PostYou're putting WAY, WAY, WAY too much emphasis on scoring. Bargnani scored 21 ppg because he was on a crappy team without a lot of other scoring options. You think Bosh couldn't have scored more if he wasn't on Miami? You think Paul Pierce or Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett couldn't have scored more if they were given more shots on a bad team? Or Carlos Boozer or Joe Johnson or Jamaal Crawford or Josh Smith or Chauncey Billups or Al Harrington or Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum or Vince Carter or Aaron Brooks or Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker or Jason Terry or Caron Butler or Shawn Marion or David West or Chris Paul or Carl Landry or Richard Jefferson or more than a dozen other guys in the league who could easily score 20 or more ppg if they were given as many shots as Bargnani took. When good players are on good teams they usually subjugate their scoring for the betterment of the team and do other things. The one dimensional players usually end up either player a smaller role or no role at all.
It also seems you're trying to explain away the criticism of Bargnani by saying our expectations of him are simply too high. Again, you're not getting it. You think adequate defense and rebounding is expecting too much? I'm pretty sure most of us expect that from ANY big man. I know I do. Most of us would love to see him score less, as long as his defense and rebounding improved. If he scored 15 ppg with even average defense and rebounding I'd cease my criticism.
You think our expectations are too high if we believe you can't win with a big man who is a very poor rebounder and defender? That's not expectations. That's history and experience.
You have to give up this "but he was top 15 scoring" argument because it really isn't much of an argument. Corey Maggette has been in the top 15 in scoring several times, but because that's the only thing he does well, he's not going to help your team win, much. Ask Milwaukee. Same goes for Monta Ellis and GOlden State. Or even Marcus Thornton and Sacramento. On New Orleans, for a coach that demanded defense, he languished on the bench. On a bad team where he could take 17 shots a game he was able to score 21 ppg. Sound familiar?
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postlolll bargnani already proved to be a valuable role player in rookie year i dont understand what your trying to accomplish by naming all those players who can adpat to playing on team with lots of talent around them.
well i actualyl like the fact that he scorers more and scores in a variety of different ways .. even if expanding all that enery on offense takes away a bit of energy from the defensve end its a trade off im willing to accept. expecally this year when he was expcted to carry the offensive load.
history and experience have taught me one thing. every situation is different.
your talking about peremiter players here in case you didnt notice bargani is a big man, off the top of my head only 3 bigs avereaged more points that bargnani (dirk aldridge and howard) pretty good company id say.
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raptorsking wrote: View Postyea bargnani is practically a sf
lol you know the saying teams playin inside out... bargnani can do both for you lool
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postlol whatever position you want to label him .. i would say C,Pf,SF hes interchangable in all those position... on offense end which makes him an inside and outside threat..
lol you know the saying teams playin inside out... bargnani can do both for you lool
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postlolll bargnani already proved to be a valuable role player in rookie year i dont understand what your trying to accomplish by naming all those players who can adpat to playing on team with lots of talent around them.
DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postwell i actualyl like the fact that he scorers more and scores in a variety of different ways .. even if expanding all that enery on offense takes away a bit of energy from the defensve end its a trade off im willing to accept. expecally this year when he was expcted to carry the offensive load.
DunkinDerozan wrote: View Posthistory and experience have taught me one thing. every situation is different.
DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postyour talking about peremiter players here in case you didnt notice bargani is a big man, off the top of my head only 3 bigs avereaged more points that bargnani (dirk aldridge and howard) pretty good company id say.
http://www.82games.com/1011/10SAC4.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM
And what difference does it make WHO scores the points? We're not talking about a post player who shots a high percentage and manufactures tons of points at the line. Thornton was actually a more efficient scorer than Bargnani was.
Besides, it's far more important for your big man to be a good defender than your perimeter players. You can get away with a poor perimeter defender far easier than you can get away with a poor interior defender. You just have to look at all the NBA Champions to see that.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View PostHe' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...
other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.
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pesterm1 wrote: View PostBargnani is a good player but he doesnt have the desire to be one of the greats. players like demar, amir, and ed and bayless dedicate themselves to the game and dont stop traiing and pacticing until they are the best.
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Jamal Crawford = Andrea Bargnani?
Ive seen posts here comparing Jamal Crawford to Andrea Bargnani, both with no desire to defend or rebound (in Jamal's case, pass the ball) but both with good offensive games.
With the Hawks moving to the second round and Jamal undoubtedly a big contributor to this, can the Raps make use of Bargnani the way the Hawks used Crawford? If Bargnani is paired with a defensive center, will it work the same way as Crawford paired with a defensive 3 like Josh Smith?
Just want to make it clear that im not a Bargnani lover and im not making a case for Bargnani to stay with the Raps, but if he does indeed stay, can him and a defensive center make things work for the Raps as evidenced by the success of the Hawks with Jamal on their team?
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For this analogy to be more accurate, you'd have to have Bargnani play as the 6th man. So, either with Bargnani or without him, the team still is in big need of a starting-calibre defensive 5.
You'd also need a sniper on the wing for kick-outs, and a high quality defender at the 1 to ensure Bargnani is basically never asked to play help D.
It definitely could work, but it would be so contingent upon who else the Raptors get in the offseason that it would be extremely difficult to forecast.
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what's the point of having an awesome 6th man bargs when every minute he's on the court we're still gonna be stuck with a weak ass rebounding/defending bargs. whether he's scoring from the starting line-up or scoring from the bench, he's still a liability out on the court.
also, how will a defensive center help bargs when the defensive center is gonna be either giving up his own assignment or fouling out from trying to cover bargs man. bargs covering power forwards, seriously?
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I think comparing the two are difficult seeing as how Crawford's help defenders are Smith, Horford and Pachulia, while Bargnani IS the help defense. Crawford's defense is no where near as bad as Barganani, or so it seems, because Crawford has help if he messes up, while Bargnani is the one providing the help.
So if they're both equally as bad on defense, Bargnani would still be the bigger liability based on position.
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