Everything Bargnani

[pistol pete]

Any team that has to rely on Bargnani as its Franchise(Marquee) player is doomed in the NBA. Bargnani has shown me nothing but inconsistency over his career and in year 5 folks should expect more of the same- has Bargnani ever grabbed 20 rebounds in a game? Barg's had a chance to step up when Bosh was out and he did not- now he's suppose to lead TO for a whole season?lol With the bright lights focused on Bargnani in 2010-11 he will wilt from the brightness- just wait....pressure makes Diamonds but it also bursts pipes.

BC's Raptor vision is bullsh*t with Bargnani as the biggest roster turd!!!!!!!!

Agreed, all I hear about Bargnani is excuses. First it was Bosh was keeping him from shining now its the italian coach didn't use him correctly to the player that he was guarding was a nba allstar in the making. I can't wait for the season to start so he can be traded and colangelo can be shown the door along with his number one pick. Ater year #5 youre not going to see anything that you havn't seen already. NOBODY BUSTS OUT IN YEAR FIVE.

If I were AB, I'd ask to be traded just to avoid being the subject of this discussion

[Raptors4life]

You know what so funny everyone wants to diss Il Mago, but I can't wait to see him play this year. An if you know anything about basketball you should know Andrea Bargnani is going to be star for years. This guy just knows how to play the game period! He can flat score and it doesn't matter were he gets it, inside or outside your going get lit up and by the way no 5 in the NBA can guard him and that's fact look what he did Lakers front court he destroy those guys. The problem with Rap's last year they didn't put the ball in his hands enough, and next year the offense is going to built around him so he's going to be much more effective because he's going get more opportunities in the game for pick & roll and on the blocks. And I what like about him is he can recognize the double team and make the correct pass to wing. And with Rupaul not hogging the ball you will see the ball movement that will love to see. Everyone thinks the Raps are going to finish last in the east because are so called super star has left. But let's be honest Bargnani has way more upside than Bosh because he does every thing easy, and to me he is the real deal and I have waiting for years to see this day happen. So do answer your question he isn't marquee player but he is my favorite player and with Amir and Bargs in front court next year it's going to cause a lot problems for opposing teams. Go Raps!

[JoePanini]

You know what so funny everyone wants to diss Il Mago, but I can't wait to see him play this year. An if you know anything about basketball you should know Andrea Bargnani is going to be star for years. This guy just knows how to play the game period! He can flat score and it doesn't matter were he gets it, inside or outside your going get lit up and by the way no 5 in the NBA can guard him and that's fact look what he did Lakers front court he destroy those guys. The problem with Rap's last year they didn't put the ball in his hands enough, and next year the offense is going to built around him so he's going to be much more effective because he's going get more opportunities in the game for pick & roll and on the blocks. And I what like about him is he can recognize the double team and make the correct pass to wing. And with Rupaul not hogging the ball you will see the ball movement that will love to see. Everyone thinks the Raps are going to finish last in the east because are so called super star has left. But let's be honest Bargnani has way more upside than Bosh because he does every thing easy, and to me he is the real deal and I have waiting for years to see this day happen. So do answer your question he isn't marquee player but he is my favorite player and with Amir and Bargs in front court next year it's going to cause a lot problems for opposing teams. Go Raps!

Finally. That's the spirit. Thank you HAHA. Best first post ever. Welcomeee

[ebrian]

If you start from the beginning and state facts, such as:
1) Bargnani is not a consistent 3 point shooter
2) Bargnani likes to attempt a lot of 3 pointers

Then you say that he suddenly is able to nail 3 of them per game (re: shoot them consistently), then obviously -- OBVIOUSLY, the team will win more. Great break down of stats, but wasn't this just simple common sense?

Next, we'll have a thread about if Jose Calderon suddenly played good defense, whether or not that will help us win more games.

[JoePanini]

If you start from the beginning and state facts, such as:
1) Bargnani is not a consistent 3 point shooter
2) Bargnani likes to attempt a lot of 3 pointers

Then you say that he suddenly is able to nail 3 of them per game (re: shoot them consistently), then obviously -- OBVIOUSLY, the team will win more. Great break down of stats, but wasn't this just simple common sense?

Next, we'll have a thread about if Jose Calderon suddenly played good defense, whether or not that will help us win more games.

LOOL. Win. HAHA

[Pizzaman]

Excuses, excuses.

You make the typical "can't be argued" statement when you say that most of his offense came off of broken plays.

I don't agree. The Raptors ran tons on plays for him.

As a general rule Bosh was the first option and he was the second

However, it is not like everyone else on the Raptors besides Bosh got their shots off of broken plays. Hogwash!!

You are also saying that stats are meaningless for all players in the NBA unless they are the main focus of the offense the majority of the time. Hogwash.!!

Sorry Buddahfan You are definitely wrong here. Very few plays were ever really called for Bargnani. There were two or three per game but the rest were because nothing else happened with their first look.

[Pizzaman]

You are avoiding the whole point here.

The question is:

Should the Raptors build their offense around a guy who only averages 14 ppg in 60% of his games and the Raptors lose about 60% of those games. On top of that his offensive rating in 09-10 was a horrible 108. In fact in his entire career his offense rating number has never exceeded his defense rating number. He has been a negative every year of is career and the gap is not getting much smaller.

06-07 -9
07-08 -7
08-09 -5
09-10 -5


http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bargnan01.html

It seems pretty clear that making Bargnani the #1 option on offense in 10-11 or whenever would be a big mistake unless he can

1. Significantly increase his unassisted field goals
2. Increase the number of field goals he makes within 15 feet of the basket
3. At least doubles the number of times that he gets to the free throw line per game.

Who cares about these other players and their teams.

These other players don't play for the Raptors.

We are talking Raptors here

No offense but the suggestion to not build the offence around Bargnani because he only scored 14 PPG in 60% of his games (even though he played second or third fiddle to a ball hog) is pretty lame coming from you who made the statement that Amir Johnson is the teams best offensive and defensive player. How can you make such a statement especially given that Amir played mostly scrub minutes?

[Buddahfan]

Sorry Buddahfan You are definitely wrong here. Very few plays were ever really called for Bargnani. There were two or three per game but the rest were because nothing else happened with their first look.

It depends what you call a play.

As I recall he ran the pick and roll and pick and pop with Amir quite a bit

Bargnani had the highest rate of assisted FG% on the Raptors last season.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM

I find it hard to believe that all or even most of those assists came on broken plays.

They may have happened late in the shot clock but that does not in my opinion make it a broken play.

All basic plays have multiple options.

If the defense has the initial option covered the team then goes to a second option and so on until they find an option where a player can shoot the ball.

So just because Bargnani was not the first or even second option on a play does not mean that when he shot the ball as the third option that the play was not run for him.

Now if you are going to take the position that if a shot is not gotten off until after the first option is stopped that it is a broken play then I will agree with you. However, that is not how I view it.

To me a broken play is when the opposing team knocks the ball lose, deflects a pass before a shot is gotten up, or if no shot is gotten up due to the 24 second clock expiring.

So I think that we might just have a different definition of "plays being called for him"

You are limiting it to the first option

I am saying any of the secondary options on the play count provided the defense does not disrupt the movement of the ball by actually knocking it away before the offense finally gets off the shot.

Fair enough; Neither of us is wrong here. We are both correct based upon how we define having a play run for someone

I do agree that Bargnani was not the first option very often. I am also not so sure that being the first option on jump shots will lead to shooting a higher percentage. All teams know who the first option is on a play so it is a lot easier to defend than the later options.

That is why NBA people will always tell you that it is better to move the ball around among the players on the court before shooting it, rather than the first guy who touches the ball other than the guard who brought it up court, shooting it. First options are more tightly covered than the second, third and fourth option. First options are more often double teamed than second, third and fourth options.

If Bargnani was a very inconsistent three point shooter when he was not the first option my guess is that his shooting will only get worse if he were to become the first option because teams defend the first option the best and the later options not so well.

As far as inside game like post up and rolling to the basket I have already posted numerous times stats from Synergy that show that Johnson was one of the best at running those plays in the NBA based upon points per possession. It is my opinion that when Johnson and Bargnani are on the court together or Davis and Bargnani together Johnson and Davis will be the first option on post shots and rolls to the basket, not Bargnani.

[Fon Riego]

He's not a consistent 3pt shooter, ok, but not a bad one. And is good enoughto be a treat, and spread the floor for himself and for his mates. The question is, do you prefer Bargnani shooting some threes or shooting none? IMO, the team is better when he's a treat there, and select his shoots.

[Buddahfan]

He's not a consistent 3pt shooter, ok, but not a bad one. And is good enoughto be a treat, and spread the floor for himself and for his mates. The question is, do you prefer Bargnani shooting some threes or shooting none? IMO, the team is better when he's a treat there, and select his shoots.

I agree

Note that you don't need to shoot the three ball too often to spread the floor.

All you need to do is shoot them well enough and at least occasionally enough to require the defense to guard you beyond the arc.

Those things will spread the court on defense.

Shooting a lot of them doesn't spread the floor if you can't make them at at least a decent rate.

Amir could shoot them all game long and it wouldn't spread the floor. In fact it would result in some other Raptors player being double teamed

[Pizzaman]

It depends what you call a play.

As I recall he ran the pick and roll and pick and pop with Amir quite a bit

Bargnani had the highest rate of assisted FG% on the Raptors last season.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM

I find it hard to believe that all or even most of those assists came on broken plays.

They may have happened late in the shot clock but that does not in my opinion make it a broken play.

All basic plays have multiple options.

If the defense has the initial option covered the team then goes to a second option and so on until they find an option where a player can shoot the ball.

So just because Bargnani was not the first or even second option on a play does not mean that when he shot the ball as the third option that the play was not run for him.

Now if you are going to take the position that if a shot is not gotten off until after the first option is stopped that it is a broken play then I will agree with you. However, that is not how I view it.

To me a broken play is when the opposing team knocks the ball lose, deflects a pass before a shot is gotten up, or if no shot is gotten up due to the 24 second clock expiring.

So I think that we might just have a different definition of "plays being called for him"

You are limiting it to the first option

I am saying any of the secondary options on the play count provided the defense does not disrupt the movement of the ball by actually knocking it away before the offense finally gets off the shot.

Fair enough; Neither of us is wrong here. We are both correct based upon how we define having a play run for someone

I do agree that Bargnani was not the first option very often. I am also not so sure that being the first option on jump shots will lead to shooting a higher percentage. All teams know who the first option is on a play so it is a lot easier to defend than the later options.

That is why NBA people will always tell you that it is better to move the ball around among the players on the court before shooting it, rather than the first guy who touches the ball other than the guard who brought it up court, shooting it. First options are more tightly covered than the second, third and fourth option. First options are more often double teamed than second, third and fourth options.

If Bargnani was a very inconsistent three point shooter when he was not the first option my guess is that his shooting will only get worse if he were to become the first option because teams defend the first option the best and the later options not so well.

As far as inside game like post up and rolling to the basket I have already posted numerous times stats from Synergy that show that Johnson was one of the best at running those plays in the NBA based upon points per possession. It is my opinion that when Johnson and Bargnani are on the court together or Davis and Bargnani together Johnson and Davis will be the first option on post shots and rolls to the basket, not Bargnani.

Agreed that we are looking at this differently, however I believe strongly that Bargnani on the floor helped Bosh immensely more than the reverse. Also what you say here " NBA people will always tell you that it is better to move the ball around among the players on the court before shooting it, rather than the first guy who touches the ball other than the guard who brought it up court, shooting it." is what I and a ton of others have been saying for years and it never happened on the Bosh led Raptors. Let's hope that the coach has enough balls now to sit guys on the pine for not moving the ball around and trying to be hogs or this team will never win games. It is also the way to get players good looks, and yes even Bargnani's shots will be better when the ball swings to him for good looks versus the shots he and the others were forced to take when Bosh or the guards could not make their initial play work. I look forward to watching Amir and Bargnani play together, and also Bargnani and Davis. I think with some time both will be better pairings than Bosh and Bargnani.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Agreed that we are looking at this differently, however I believe strongly that Bargnani on the floor helped Bosh immensely more than the reverse. Also what you say here " NBA people will always tell you that it is better to move the ball around among the players on the court before shooting it, rather than the first guy who touches the ball other than the guard who brought it up court, shooting it." is what I and a ton of others have been saying for years and it never happened on the Bosh led Raptors. Let's hope that the coach has enough balls now to sit guys on the pine for not moving the ball around and trying to be hogs or this team will never win games. It is also the way to get players good looks, and yes even Bargnani's shots will be better when the ball swings to him for good looks versus the shots he and the others were forced to take when Bosh or the guards could not make their initial play work. I look forward to watching Amir and Bargnani play together, and also Bargnani and Davis. I think with some time both will be better pairings than Bosh and Bargnani.

i agree as well. with bargs playing mostly outside, he was pulling out the opposing center therefore giving bosh more room to operate. but with the touches, i think its more blame on the PG rather than the coach, i cant stress enough how calderon had blinders (what they put on horses so they cant see their blindspots) everytime he brought down the ball and seemed like he never saw anybody else on the court except for bosh. i doubt mitchell or triano ever told him, take the ball halfcourt and give it to CB every possession, maybe in a few occasions but 3 out of 5 times is mostly his doing.

with the raps new structure, bargs can play ala-CB, but now he has rebounders all around him incase he misses his shot. unlike with bosh before, he misses a shot and he has bargs and turk to grab the board. yikes.

[Pizzaman]

i agree as well. with bargs playing mostly outside, he was pulling out the opposing center therefore giving bosh more room to operate. but with the touches, i think its more blame on the PG rather than the coach, i cant stress enough how calderon had blinders (what they put on horses so they cant see their blindspots) everytime he brought down the ball and seemed like he never saw anybody else on the court except for bosh. i doubt mitchell or triano ever told him, take the ball halfcourt and give it to CB every possession, maybe in a few occasions but 3 out of 5 times is mostly his doing.

with the raps new structure, bargs can play ala-CB, but now he has rebounders all around him incase he misses his shot. unlike with bosh before, he misses a shot and he has bargs and turk to grab the board. yikes.

No question at all the Jose had blinders on for Bosh, or man love or something else I cannot explain. In addition to his injuries and poor defense it was the most infuriating part of Jose's game to watch for me. He consistently blew off Bargnani and others for open sots in favour of a dump to Bosh so he could hold it for 12 seconds before deciding whether he thought the ref would give him the call if he tried to drive on two guys, or if he should jack it up or cough it up or give it back to Jose because eveyone knows Bosh is and was one of the worst passing big men in the game ( not surprising since he rarely looked to pass). For that reason and crappy defense I hope Jose is gone. I also blame the coach big time because he is supposed to have the control to change that or bench guys etc.. If Triano does not have that control the same thing will happen now with Weems and DD..with all the hype they may turn into Mike James and jack up everything they see. Good coaching will make sure that does not happen

[Pizzaman]

I think the whole argument of "leadership" is overrated. Leadership menas nothing in the NBA if you have no talent. Talent wins and when you have talent 'leaders' guide the team to get the most out of that talent. The Raps had very little serious talent on this club last year (just 'potential' unproven youngsters and overrated players i.e Turks, Calderon, Bargnani) and have even less this year.

How many wins do you think having a vocal leader that is an average NBA player gets you?

For those that think Bargnani might be a "marquee" player, a star or a leader, how many players do you know that don't work as hard as they can at what they do, gain the respect of their teammates, coaches and fans (outside of delusional Raptor fans)? Not many.

By your own definition you forgot your favourite squeeze Bosh on the Overated list of Raptors. No one was more overated than Bosh and what respect exactly did he earn from his teamates, coaches, fans?? Being an egotistical player that wants to be the man is not a team leader. Bosh will never lead anything so good luck to you and him in Miami while we are supportin g the Raptors.

[Pizzaman]

Are you stupid? Based on your logic, I suppose you could quote his stats from a ymca pickup game.

Nice comparison YMCA pickup game to International basketball representing your country!! You should watch a little more sports instead of so much " Say Yes to the Dress"