And I've supported my arguments about Bargnani's defense with stats plenty of times. Possibly even in this thread. But my point is that you don't need stats to see that Bargnani is not a good defender. There's no fine line here. No grey area. Was Jordan a great scorer? Of course he was. And you don't need stats to see that. You just need to watch him on the court. Of course, you can look at the stats and see what is obvious. And you can do that with Bargnani's defense, too.
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malefax wrote: View PostPlayers do improve on help defense. It is really not uncommon at all -- actually, it's expected.
Also, Dallas did not generally play zone to hide Nowitzky. He has improved a lot on defense over the years. They play zone for a variety of reasons, but if it's to hide anyone, it's Terry or Barea.
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And another top 100 underway at cbssports. Bargnani at 83 over there.
83. Andrea Bargnani, C, age 25, Toronto Raptors
2011 stats: 21.4 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 0.7 bpg, 8.6 RR, 53.3 TS%, 16.50 PER
Composite rankings (random order): 96, 67, 87
If basketball had a defensive DH -- or in this case a DD, designated defender -- Bargnani would maybe be a top 20 player. He's almost everything Dirk Nowitzki is offensively, especially at the age of 25. He's seven feet, can hit from anywhere, puts the ball on the floor and can shoot over anyone. He's not Dirk in terms of efficiency -- or anywhere close -- but just for comparisons sake, he's similar.
It all falls apart in terms of rebounding and defense though. Basically any board Bargnani grabbed is a result of it just bouncing straight to him (his rebound rate was an embarrassing 8.6 last year). He's not aggressive and doesn't attack. His defensive rating was atrocious last season (115.0) and he basically has no idea how to move his feet on a pick and roll.
But on the offensive side, good. Defense, bad. Hence, No. 83.
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Wages of Wins article on Bargnani
On Aug. 6, this article appeared on Dave Berri's site. It is written by Devin Dignam. It judges Bargnani a failure even if he's compared only against shooting guards, ignoring his massive shortcomings as a centre;
[...] even as a shooting guard (the position with the lowest overall productivity) Bargnani is still significantly below average. An average player posts a WP48 of 0.100 and in Bargnani’s playing time would have earned around 5.0 wins. At 2.9 wins our seven footer still comes up short even if we spot him 6 inches.
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Tim W. wrote: View PostI usually hate saying things like this, but anyone who thinks that Bargnani is anything better than a bad defender knows little to nothing about basketball, or has simply not watched him play.
Tim W. wrote: View PostAnd my argument is, and always has been:
Bargnani is a terrible team defender, a terrible pick and roll defender, very bad at defending faceup big men who can put the ball on the floor, bad at defending active post men who have good footwork, and decent at defending slower, more methodical back to the basket big men when they post up.
Therefore you can count me as another poster who believes that Tim's assessment of Barg's is consistent.
I would also add that for the most part, my eye test of Bargnani has left me with a very similar opinion to that of Tim's. Further I would state that there is a general consensus here at the republic that bargnani is a negative on defense. I would say that this is supported not only by the "eye test" of our posters, but also by any statistical evidence we (as a whole group) have been able to dig up at this time. Even the article that I posted which was the impetus of this thread argued only that barg's was not a "terrible" defender, the implication being that his is still below average/bad. I can say quite confidently that you can only put barg's into 3 categories. He is either a below average/poor defender, a bad defender, or a terrible defender. I don't think you can make the case that bargnani is currently, an average or above average defender. And I have never seen any stats (advanced or otherwise) and/or a compelling argument that would lead me to believe that you could consider bargs an average defender or better.
That being said, I do think that we have a remarkable intelligent and insightful group of posters (relax, this is only in comparison the gong show that is other websites ) that would allow us to be able to dig into specific areas of bargnani's defense to examine closely which types of situations he is good/bad/terrible. With the help of advanced metrics and websites like synergy sports we can have discussions that delve into barg's specific defensive capabilities. Which was what I was hoping this thread would spark and to a satisfactory extent it has. In my opinion, if we put bargnani's defense under a more powerful microscope and delve into his situational pluses and minuses, we may be able to make better predictions on which specific areas he is likely or unlikely to improve without falling back on the overly simplistic argument that a new defensive minded coach will have an impact (not that he won't, just that this argument on its own is difficult to support with any kind of evidence, and is basically an opinion statement along a spectrum that is either believed or not believed). If we can continue this effort of more specific analysis I think we will be better informed, have a greater knowledge of the game, and have more realistic expectations. Also it is a distraction from the lockout and gives us something to talk about.
I would love greater analysis about the specifics of bargnani's defense as well as arguments based on that analysis. However, I will state that I believe the greatest indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour and as such I think that it is unlikely we will see a substantial change in bargnani's effort/output on the defensive end. I will keep this opinion until somebody provides me with evidence that is strong enough to warrant a change in this position.Last edited by ezz_bee; Wed Aug 10, 2011, 01:37 PM."They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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I partially agree to ezz_bee's comment. *Partially* because i didnt read everything word for word, but the gyst, i somehow agree.
When people say "have you ever played basketball?" have you ever watched a single game of basketball? or when you dont agree on some things people say you know less about basketball than they do, i think is laughable at times. but i guess people say that at the heat of the moment, and it does bother me initially but i dont lose sleep over it. i think what people really need to understand and drill in their heads is that this is a public site, and everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how dumb it is.
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Isn't it time this thread was merged?"They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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I think Bargnani lost weight.
Was just watching some of Bargnani's highlights from the exibition games of the Eurobasket 2011. One thing that is noticably different about him is his speed, size and lift. He put up 26 pnts and 6 rbs today against poland. Check out the vids and judge for yourself. To me he looks slimmer which is alowing him to be alot smoother and mobile on the court.
( This could have been posted in the "Everything Bargnani" thread but i figured with so little going on it could sit on the homepage for abit)
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It's hard to say from just the highlights, but he does seem to be more mobile and it looked like he was jumping more for the rebounds. Not sure it'll change my expectations but it definitely isn't a bad sign."They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014
"I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
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