In this debate, you have to look at the NBA as a whole versus every other separate entity league as a whole. The guys in the NBA are among the biggest babies in the world. You don't get calls in the NBA based on actuality, its based on who you are. I literally can't stand to watch Kobe based on this. Most players in the NBA have this whiney, complain about every call attitutde whether it be an international or American player. Compare this to the European bball league and the reffing is totally different, definately allowed to be more aggressive, more hand checks, etc.. Are these guys literally tougher? Maybe not. The NBA players probably have the potential to be tougher, but with a think foul first attitude that translates to their international conquests, their is no comparison of who plays tougher when NBA pussy rules are neglected.
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Buddahfan wrote: View PostEvery time a U.S.A. national team plays in international competition for what now seems like an eternity ESPN/ABC or whoever, have stated and keep stating that American players are more athletic and European players are more physical
This is the biggest crock of basketball related BS going.
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Lark Benson wrote: View PostI don't know where the Raptors HQ stats come form either, I assumed it was from 82games since that's the only source I've ever found of that information. It's possible the diagram is incorrect, I was going to bed and didn't bother to fact check it in any way.
As for how 82games calculates win/loss with regard to a certain lineup, it is:
# W = number of games a unit outscored its opponents while on the court.
# L = number of games a unit was outscored by its opponents while on the court.
That's taken from any of the team 5-man unit pages, and you can instantly see why it's not exactly a great indication of how effective a lineup is. For example I can look at Amir's top lineups chart and calculate that in 491 minutes of playing with Bargs, the duo was only +14, while in the 238 minutes he played with bosh they were +64. Paints a different picture, no?
As for the garbage buckets comment, I was stating that Bosh would best be paired with someone who does most of their scoring that way, not that Amir did (though I can get why you would take it that way). Besides, my personal definition of garbage buckets is what most people might call 'easy buckets', ie finishing plays typically initiated by others.
There are I believe a couple of issues with them.
1. I used only the top five units in minutes whereas you used all the five man units for either of the three player combination of among Bosh, Bargnani and Johnson. In a couple of instances their were as many as 13 five player combinations for a pair; eg. Johnson and Bargnani and Bosh and Bargnani.
2. In the case of the Bosh-Bargnani top five units in minutes they accounted for 68% of the total minutes of the Bosh-Bargnani units. However in the Johnson-Bargnani case that percentage was only 51% I explain below why I think that this is an issue.
If you take the numbers from Johnson's page the total of +14 that you arrived at which I verified is based upon a rules change from what I posted. I said top five units in terms in minutes, not all the units.
Lets assume Johnson and Bargnani start
Now based upon last season's numbers form 82games they are showing that the top 5 Bosh-Bargnani units in terms of minutes logged 1,035 minutes and the remainder 477. So the top five Bosh-Bargnani units in minutes accounted for 68% of the court time that Bosh-Bargnani were on the court together. Whereas the top five Johnson-Bargnani units in minutes accounted for only 51% of the total Johnson-Bargnani units minutes.
It is my opinion based upon observations of game watching that normally coming off of the bench a player is more likely to have their units minutes distributed among more five man units more evenly than if he is starting.
The bottom eight Johnson-Bargnani units in minutes got 49% of the total Johnson-Bargnani units minutes and were a minus 25 vs a plus 39 on top five Johnson-Bargnani units in minutes. That is a big swing.
Of course we will not know until it plays out in 10-11 but it seems to me that if Johnson starts and plays 30 plus mpg that the top five Johnson-Bargnani units in terms of total Johnson-Bargnani unit minutes would be closer to 68% and not 51%.
That is why I took only the top five units in minutes for all three player combinations and not their total minutes. I feel that in comparing the top five units in minutes for each combination it becomes a more equitable comparison if we are talking about Johnson starting as opposed to coming off of the bench.
Of course there is the thingy about the fact that Bosh and Bargnani were on the court together mostly against starters whereas Johnson was on the court with a mixed bag of some starters and some bench players.
Though Johnson himself generally matched up with his opposite on the second unit the other four players on the court included some starters. After all we are looking at five man unit numbers and not head to head numbers
Calculating the +/- on the top five man units in minutes we get
Pair------------------Plus/Minus
--------------------------------
Bosh-Bargnani---------Minus 78
Bosh-Johnson---------PLus 51
Johnson-Bargnani------Plus 39
So the numbers are slightly better with Johnson and Bosh than Johnson and Bargnani and a lot worse for Bosh-Bargnani who of course played the greater percentage of their total minutes against starters than either Johnson-Bosh or Johnson-Bargnani.
So it appears any way you cut it whether using their calculated win/loss numbers or the +/- numbers the Johnson with either Bosh or with Bargnani had superior on court numbers than Bosh with Bargnani.
Whether a starting pair of Johnson-Bargnani can maintain the same relative success in 10-11 as the Johnson-Bargnani pair did when Johnson comes off of the bench remains to be seen and open to debate for at least the next several months.
Of course if Davis starts with Bargnani than all of this discussion is moot
.Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
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“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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Lark Benson wrote: View PostAs for the garbage buckets comment, I was stating that Bosh would best be paired with someone who does most of their scoring that way, not that Amir did (though I can get why you would take it that way). Besides, my personal definition of garbage buckets is what most people might call 'easy buckets', ie finishing plays typically initiated by others.Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
Larger Photo of the avatar
“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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I see what you're getting at with the top-5 units argument and it makes sense. My point still stands though, which is that by including minutes played in your analysis, Johnson + Bosh is far more effective than Bargnani + Johnson.
Using the top-5 units stats, you get:
Bosh + Johnson at +51 in 185 minutes played, vs
Johnson + Bargs at +39 in 248 minutes played.
So if you give Bosh + Johnson 248 minutes played at the same rate that produced their +51 in 185 mins, you arrive at +68 (vs +39 for Bargs + Amir). That's a big difference in effectiveness, and the size of the gap between the pairings is the point I'm trying to convey.
I completely agree that Johnson + anybody results are inflated for bench play and I'm sure we both agree that these numbers don't tell the whole story. They do, however, give a bit of weight to the idea that although Andrea's ability to space the floor undoubtedly gave Bosh a lot of room on offense, his rebounding and defensive deficiencies outweighed the offensive positives and will continue to do so regardless of who might be paired with, until they are shored up either by teammates that hide said deficiencies or improvements in his game.
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Multipaul wrote: View Postwow, how about spare us another pointless anti raptors diatribe. you devalidated your raptors fan status with 'it's too bad bosh was fed a bunch of bargnani led lineups'. truly u should renounce ur status here and go to miamiheat.com and join the other cb ballwashers. this is the BARGS appreciation thread. ur circular logic thinly veiled in poor man's stats and an obviously deficient basketball accumen do not lend themselves to this thread.
ps, since u r so savvy with math, im shocked u did not realize this willl be bargs' 5th season, not his 4th.
5 years of sharpshooting,shotblocking excellence.
this is a typical post from someone who clearly cant deal with any of the many problems the raps have...
so why is is that when someone points out a problem, they are automatically accused of being a raps hater and then insulted
so pointless to read any posts from multipaul. why dont you stop posting your garbage here and stop wasting everyone's time...
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Lark Benson wrote: View PostI see what you're getting at with the top-5 units argument and it makes sense. My point still stands though, which is that by including minutes played in your analysis, Johnson + Bosh is far more effective than Bargnani + Johnson.
Using the top-5 units stats, you get:
Bosh + Johnson at +51 in 185 minutes played, vs
Johnson + Bargs at +39 in 248 minutes played.
So if you give Bosh + Johnson 248 minutes played at the same rate that produced their +51 in 185 mins, you arrive at +68 (vs +39 for Bargs + Amir). That's a big difference in effectiveness, and the size of the gap between the pairings is the point I'm trying to convey.
I completely agree that Johnson + anybody results are inflated for bench play and I'm sure we both agree that these numbers don't tell the whole story. They do, however, give a bit of weight to the idea that although Andrea's ability to space the floor undoubtedly gave Bosh a lot of room on offense, his rebounding and defensive deficiencies outweighed the offensive positives and will continue to do so regardless of who might be paired with, until they are shored up either by teammates that hide said deficiencies or improvements in his game.
That is why I originally used the Won Loss records on my blog post at NBA 25-15 rather than the +/-.
After all it is how many games you win and not the cumulative +/- that matters.
Johnson-Bargnani----65%
Johnson-Bosh--------59%
Bosh-Bargnani-------49%
See a post of mine further up on this page to get the winning percentages
The winning percentage vs the +/- discrepancy also makes sense when you recall that in 09-10 the Raptors got blown pretty badly at the beginning of the game and the beginning of third quarter enough to distort the the +/- numbers for the Bosh-Bargnani units vs their actually winning percentage. When they won they won by generally smaller amounts. When they lost they lost by both smaller and really large amounts.Last edited by Buddahfan; Thu Aug 26, 2010, 01:49 PM.Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
Larger Photo of the avatar
“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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Call me crazy, but I might take Bargs late 1st round, early 2nd in my fantasy draft. His current draft position is 34 which seems absurd. He is a healthy big that gives you good percentages, 3's, points, not great for boards (but no worse than Amare), blocks and low TO's. Amare is currently 11th with David Lee 10th. I see Bargs having better statistical years than both of them and if his production goes up like some expect, he could throw down the greatest fantasy season in raptors history. A 48%, 78%, 1.5 3's, 21.5 ppg, 7.5 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.5 blk, 1.5 TO.
As far as on court production correlated to winning is a development that remains to be seen, but this is his year where the expectations are the highest, but the pressure is the lowest.
The comparison of Bosh/Bargs lineups really aren't far since Bosh might be the only franchise player in history who never made a single player better and his high efficiency/0 play making offense only made his stats look good while the rest of the team either stood around or naively looked for him to take the lead or make any impact on defense.
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vinnie_paz wrote: View Postis there a way to block trashy posts like this ? what a waste of time and how immature do you have to be?
this is a typical post from someone who clearly cant deal with any of the many problems the raps have...
so why is is that when someone points out a problem, they are automatically accused of being a raps hater and then insulted
so pointless to read any posts from multipaul. why dont you stop posting your garbage here and stop wasting everyone's time...
This thread was entitled Bargnani Appreciation Thread- then you Bosh loving sycophants bombard it with your typical anti Bargs, anti Raptors, "lets tank this season and rely on the 'YGZ'" attitude.
Am i not allowed to defend the premise of this thread? it was not the "lets defend Bargs thread".
Maybe you can start a "i want to whine and b*tch when other members dont agree with me thread" , i promise i wont post on it
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mo-sales wrote: View PostThe comparison of Bosh/Bargs lineups really aren't far since Bosh might be the only franchise player in history who never made a single player better and his high efficiency/0 play making offense only made his stats look good while the rest of the team either stood around or naively looked for him to take the lead or make any impact on defense.
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mo-sales wrote: View PostThe comparison of Bosh/Bargs lineups really aren't far since Bosh might be the only franchise player in history who never made a single player better and his high efficiency/0 play making offense only made his stats look good while the rest of the team either stood around or naively looked for him to take the lead or make any impact on defense.
Johnson so far in his career hasn't put up the greatest individual box score numbers, but he makes the other guys on the court better as shown by the advanced metrics whereas Bosh does not. I have mentioned this a number of times.
Whether Johnson's ability to make the other four players on the court with him better will carry over if he becomes a starter in 10-11 remains to be seen. My guess is that if he can manage to stay on the court 30 + mpg that by the end of 2010 that his play on the court with the starters will contribute to making them better though maybe not to the extent that he has done in the past playing primarily with and against second unit players but still positive and not negative.
Though who knows eventually how good he could become in a couple of season if he manages to be able to stay on the court for 30+ mpg for the entire 10-11 season.Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
Larger Photo of the avatar
“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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Multipaul wrote: View PostYour arrogance is paralleled only by the ridiculousness of your avatar.
This thread was entitled Bargnani Appreciation Thread- then you Bosh loving sycophants bombard it with your typical anti Bargs, anti Raptors, "lets tank this season and rely on the 'YGZ'" attitude.
Am i not allowed to defend the premise of this thread? it was not the "lets defend Bargs thread".
Maybe you can start a "i want to whine and b*tch when other members dont agree with me thread" , i promise i wont post on it
Source for the above paraphrased quote: Numerous philosophers and politicians throughout historyAvatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s
Memories some so sweet, indeed
Larger Photo of the avatar
“As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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Buddahfan wrote: View Post"When a leader goes against the will of the majority of people most of the time, he/she will get replaced by the people one way or the other"
Source for the above paraphrased quote: Numerous philosophers and politicians throughout history
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